St. Blazey's - My first layout

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TimberSurf
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:05 am

(I think I have fixed my website)

Don't forget that a 12v plug in wall supply may not be enough umf for the point motors if you use solenoid type. If you get a DCC controller, its possible to use that, but I would recommend you have a separate supply.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:27 am

TimberSurf wrote:(I think I have fixed my website)

Don't forget that a 12v plug in wall supply may not be enough umf for the point motors if you use solenoid type. If you get a DCC controller, its possible to use that, but I would recommend you have a separate supply.


Yes everything is working on your site now. Thanks Timbersurf. :D

The 12v supply will only be for the LED lighting now.
Ill be looking into other higher rated power supplies for the point motors as I wish to control them via a control panel.
Any suggestions :?:
It will depend on which DCC controller I manage to purchase and what sort of accessory power it has as to wether I need another power supply or not, but at the moment, I want to only control trains with DCC.
I'm still trying to work out how to implement the control panel and power for it and the point motors / light signals etc.
Er.... am I correct in thinking that DCC controllers have accessory power like AC controllers? :?:
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:16 am

DCC controllers don't have an Aux connection (in theory, if its man enough, they can use the train control for accessories as well) but until you get into boosters etc, leave it just for trains.
Search for control panels on this site or here's one I've been looking at http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=29671.
You can have one panel, with two supplies (12vDC lights, 16VAC points + CDU) and control points and lights from it, build your own in wood or buy a sloping front plastic one. Read my http://www.elotion.co.uk/controls.html page to set you off on the right foot. I will be adding pages describing how to build mimic/control panels in the future.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:48 am

Excellent, easy to understand explaination.
Thanks very much Timbersurf :D
Yes I think the dual 12v / 16VAC supplies would work very well allowing me to have a CDU and switches with twin panel LED's for point control and direction on the panel using the 16VAC and a switch for turning the scenery lighting on and off using the 12v supply.
Does any member have a recommendation for a 16VAC supply, nice and cheap but reliable :?:

Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:53 pm

Hi all.
There was something wrong with the plan. A pinch point on one of the sidings meaning that even one long loco with one coach wouldn't fit.
So here is the new plan with extended sidings and a small re-jig of some peices of track.
layout Design Plan 4sm.JPG
layout Design Plan 4sm.JPG (52.84 KiB) Viewed 1925 times

And the new track diagram. (Although these are Hornby numbers the track will be mostly PECO)
LAYOUT Csm.JPG
LAYOUT Csm.JPG (15.89 KiB) Viewed 1925 times


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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:05 pm

Hi all.
I am still having a major problem trying to work out where the insulated rail breaks should be on my layout. They will be insulfrog points due to layout size restrictions.
Would a kind member possibly help me in the right direction for these please?
I have created a track diagram to draw the insulated track breaks onto below.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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To take a copy of the image, right click on it and choose "SAVE IMAGE AS" and save it somewhere on your computer.
IRJsPlansm.JPG
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:31 pm

I never actually looked at the track work in detail before, especially as your layout design plan is a bit busy! Now you have given us the simple version, I am confused, there seem to be too many crossovers top and middle, if they were spread out to allow passing of a few coaches, it might be understood, but in such a short distance away from each other they seem a bit pointless! (No pun intended). Unless you just want to cram in as much point work as possible for the hell of it! And why are we talking isolation points? have you decided NOT to go DCC? or is it that you want it capable of both?
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:24 pm

TimberSurf wrote:I never actually looked at the track work in detail before, especially as your layout design plan is a bit busy! Now you have given us the simple version, I am confused, there seem to be too many crossovers top and middle, if they were spread out to allow passing of a few coaches, it might be understood, but in such a short distance away from each other they seem a bit pointless! (No pun intended). Unless you just want to cram in as much point work as possible for the hell of it! And why are we talking isolation points? have you decided NOT to go DCC? or is it that you want it capable of both?


Thanks for your reply Timbersurf.
The green track plan is actually a copy of the panel diagram not of the actual layout size.
It is a bit busy as it has been minimised to only show the points and the tracks leading away, not the full layout and only to mark on it where rail track break locations will be.

Yes the track will be DCC, but I was under the impression that when using dead frogged points I would need to create track breaks on the points.
Excuse my naivety but is this not the case?
Still learning, still confused :lol:
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:55 pm

First things first, having two cross overs one after another achieves nothing! There needs to be a big gap between them, worthy of getting at least a long loco in. I cant see the point in having two on a trot so close?
I believe the three ringed in yellow can just be removed and you would still get the same functionality!
IRJsPlansm1.JPG
Redundant crossovers
IRJsPlansm1.JPG (37.48 KiB) Viewed 1877 times


By all means, someone with more knowledge of prototypical, confirm or rubbish my thoughts!

As for isolation, used in DC to allow multiple engines on one siding, to split districts for different controllers and to stop reversing loops do strange things. In theory, DCC needs NO isolators at all! If anything, needs more pickups, as points kill tracks that are not the route, unnecessary with DCC as you may still want to drive a loco (or have lights on) on the non routed line. The only exceptions are reverse loops and electro frog points, as they have the possibility of wheels bridging opposite tracks, as they are very (1/2mm's) close to each other, so tend to isolate the middle rails from both routes and power sidings downstream independently of point.
Thus no isolations should be necessary, unless you ever want to power the layout with DC. That doesn't stop us putting in all necessary isolations for DC and then running it on DCC, just means we have even more pickup points to cover both!
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:41 pm

Thanks for the information Timbersurf.
No I will not be running DC for trains. All train control will be done via DCC.
DC 12v/16v will be used only for lighting and point motors etc.

If we number your circles on the diagram from left to right 1-3.
1. Yes this defnatly needs removing.
2. This can fit in a shunter between the points which is what i'll be mostly running.
3. As 2. plus room for a longer train to run around a shunter sitting between the points and on into the siding.

The deisgn has been built and tested in Horny's HVR2, which, if the software is to scale, can fit in a 0-4-0 loco.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:27 pm

OK, if we assume that all cross overs are switched as pairs.....
Red is absolute minimum number of pick up points, this will leave lots of track dead dependant on point position
Add yellow and you will get "live" sidings, but occasional dead sections if points are not set correctly.
Add violet and your guaranteed every bit of track is live irrespective of point throw!
P.S. I have removed the redundant No1

IRJsPlansm2.JPG
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:59 pm

Wow that's amazing. Thanks so much Timbersurf.
This will be added to the plans I have created so far once I have changed the original plan to remove number 1 siding.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby flying scotsman123 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:22 pm

you don't need pickups in all the sidings if you want them to be live all the time, even if using insulfrogs. Hornby sell some clips which are basically staples to bridge the gap from the point blade to the stationary rail, bridging power across. these are nice and easy to fit, two per point, a quick push in and you're away. Still an idea to have lots of pickups though, just for peace of mind.
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Stone station in pre-grouping days, my layout.

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:21 am

flying scotsman123 wrote:you don't need pickups in all the sidings if you want them to be live all the time, even if using insulfrogs. Hornby sell some clips which are basically staples to bridge the gap from the point blade to the stationary rail, bridging power across. these are nice and easy to fit, two per point, a quick push in and you're away. Still an idea to have lots of pickups though, just for peace of mind.


Thanks for your reply flying scotsman123.
I will be using peco track with the same geometry as hornby track with insulfrogs points. Would I still need the Hornby DCC clips?
I think I will be using the pick up diagram as kindly supplied by Timbersurf with all pick up points added making all sidings live, hoping this will not cause any shorting problems and lights to stay on in coachs etc.

I am still looking for a suitable 16v DC power supply for the SEEP PM1 point motors / control panel.
Would anyone have any suggestions or user comments on any that I should consider or perhaps you have definate no-no's.
I've had a look through the forum but cannot seem to find any posts about them.

And just a side note....
I have built the Ratio Linesman's hut although not finished painting it yet but decided to make a little jig out of yoghurt pots which I glued to the back of the door and now it stays open. :)
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby flying scotsman123 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:47 am

If you use all of Timbersurfs pickup points, you won't need any clips, if you don't want too many pickups, then I'm fairly confident that the clips will still work, unless the whole of the point blade moves, as opposed to just the lower half with the newer hornby points. otherwise the clips will ping out.

For my hornby point motors I'm just going to use a cheapy hornby DC controller, I have plenty leftover from when I switched to DCC.
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Stone station in pre-grouping days, my layout.


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