10 x 3 N gauge layout - I think my plan is there -last check

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Dale_the_noob
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10 x 3 N gauge layout - I think my plan is there -last check

Postby Dale_the_noob » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:59 pm

http://www.bsquared.co.uk/dale/10%20x%203.jpg

This is my layout. It covers all my needs (i think);

    Fast/freight trains can pass slow trains stopped at the station
    Branchline to play with while the 2 mainlines run
    Ability to run trains on to and off of the branchline and into the bay from the mainline.
    Depot area to play shunting/store locomotives
    Gradients to make the layout more interesting

The layout offers all of these, but I want to run the layout realistically (ish) so can anyone help/advise if the operation of getting DMUs into the yard from the mainline and branchline.

From the bay top left, the DMU would need to either reverse on to the mainline heading right either up the up line or cross and go up the downline before moving into the yard using the points on the right. (This is my latest addtion). My original method was the DMU would travel up the branchline and then reverse down into the station onto the bottom line. (Or the last train from of the day on the branchline could travel to that platform. The DMU could then reverse into the headshunt.

There is easy entry and exit from the right of the yard (where the branchline crosses). Exiting left through the station is easy, but the access coming through the station is more awkward. Would a loco/DMU travel along the up line and then reverse into the yard, or would it cross to the downline and reverse into the yard or the last option would it travel along the upline, just out of the station reverse into the downline of the station and drive into the yards headshunt.

I hope this all makes sense, I'm just trying to make sure that the entrances and exits to the yard are ok.

Any help is appreciated

PS Next is signalling. lol
Last edited by Dale_the_noob on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grahame
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Grahame » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:14 pm

On initial inspection it looks an ambitious plan for one person but at 10 x 3 it ought be do-able. In general the track plan is relatively sound but I have a few concerns;

* Gradient; I calculate from measurement of the straight section that you only have less than 3 feet to get the branch high enough to cross the main line - this will make the slope very steep in railways terms and is really insufficient.

* Access to the loco depot is by way of reversing on a headshunt - AFAIA it's not necessary if the connection has a catch point protection.

* Curves; You really need to set a minimum radius of at least 10.5" (2nd radius) and stick to it with the left hand inner bend being larger as you will be having a platform alongside.

* Points, slips and crossing; try to avoid slips as they are complex to wire and can be a weakness for running.

* Crossovers; their use on the plan is a little messy and could do with re-consideration and rationalisation.

G.

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Dale_the_noob » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:46 pm

Grahame wrote:On initial inspection it looks an ambitious plan for one person but at 10 x 3 it ought be do-able. In general the track plan is relatively sound but I have a few concerns;

* Gradient; I calculate from measurement of the straight section that you only have less than 3 feet to get the branch high enough to cross the main line - this will make the slope very steep in railways terms and is really insufficient.


It works out as 42" running length for the branchline and 23" (from the last connection with another line) running length for the mainline, so if I used 1:40 on both, I should have enough clearance (1.625" or 42mm). I should then have enough lenth to get back up to normal height before the fiddle yard.

Grahame wrote:* Access to the loco depot is by way of reversing on a headshunt - AFAIA it's not necessary if the connection has a catch point protection.


Is a DMU yard and carriage sidings the same?

Grahame wrote:* Curves; You really need to set a minimum radius of at least 10.5" (2nd radius) and stick to it with the left hand inner bend being larger as you will be having a platform alongside.


I've set anytrack up as a minimum of 10", I will adjust to 11" and see if any tracks go red. I've tried to stick to 12", but some are less. The curves at the top left will be under a bridge with the station building on, hiding the sharpness of the curves.


Grahame wrote:* Points, slips and crossing; try to avoid slips as they are complex to wire and can be a weakness for running.


I will try to remove the double slip, its the to allow trains on and off the branch. When I lay things out, I will see if it can go, just squeezing things up a bit should allow the slip to go.

Grahame wrote:* Crossovers; their use on the plan is a little messy and could do with re-consideration and rationalisation.


I added the crossovers on the right when I added the yard exit on the right. I could get rid of the exit and the crossovers which would make things less messy

Thanks for the input :D

Grahame
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Grahame » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:17 pm

Dale_the_noob wrote:It works out as 42" running length for the branchline and 23" (from the last connection with another line) running length for the mainline, so if I used 1:40 on both, I should have enough clearance (1.625" or 42mm). I should then have enough lenth to get back up to normal height before the fiddle yard.


From after the last point leaving the station to just before the bend starts is not 42 inches if the entire width of the plan is ten feet. As a ratio it works out just under three feet and to get 1.5" high (which is roughly what you want) is only 1 in 24. You really ought to be aiming for 1 in 40 or gentler.

G.

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Dale_the_noob » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:53 pm

Hi Grahame

The branchline track is just over 40" before crossing the mainline. The 2 pieces are 20" and 17" respecticely and then a few inches on the piece that crosses the mainline.

On the mainline, from the point going into the yard, there is a 5" point and then 18".

I'm just seeing if I can adjust the yard to fit in better.

Then I'll look at the scenary

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Dale_the_noob » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:26 pm

I've been working long and hard and updated the plan including how the scenary will be roughly placed....

I've had to keep the image large to fit it all in at a detail you can see.

http://www.bsquared.co.uk/dale/10%20x%203%20take%202.jpg

locoworks
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby locoworks » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:32 pm

instead of a branch fiddle yard, why not actually have a high level branch terminus over your fiddle yard and actually run the branch proper??

Grahame
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Grahame » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:51 am

Dale_the_noob wrote:The branchline track is just over 40" before crossing the mainline. The 2 pieces are 20" and 17" respecticely and then a few inches on the piece that crosses the mainline.


You can't really count a gradient on a curve (trains really struggle on curved slopes and it's best to avoid them) so ought discount that part and it's best not to install points on slopes so only measure from after the last point.

G.

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mikeuk54
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby mikeuk54 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:02 am

I'm sure you have already considered this but I will say it anyway.
If the upper level fiddle yard (Blue) is to be controlled by electic point motors you will need a greater space underneath between them and the track underneath. (unlees of course you are going to use point motors that are on the surface.) this would require that your upper level be even higher for clearance
Just a thought, otherwise a really ambitious looking plan with plenty of potential.

Mike

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stuartp
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby stuartp » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:59 am

Grahame wrote:* Access to the loco depot is by way of reversing on a headshunt - AFAIA it's not necessary if the connection has a catch point protection.


Agreed. Get rid of the requirement for everything to reverse via the headshunt to get on and off the depot and the rest becomes a lot easier to operate. There are locations where depots are accessed via headshunts but only where space precludes direct access. Apart from being a bit of a 'depot squashed onto a shelf" cliche they're a pain to operate on the real thing as well as the model.

Provided you have a trap point protecting the passenger lines you can make a facing connection to the inside line or trailing connection via a single slip to the outside. The single slip then lets you depart left without running too far wrong road, if you make the facing connection you'll need a crossover to the right to depart onto the outside line.

(Which is up and down ? The plan doesn't say).

How far your DMU would travel along which line before reversing into the yard depends on how it is signalled, which in turn depends on your era/region etc. The default with traditional semaphore signalling would be to travel in the correct direction for as far as possible before reversing, but a more modern installation might be partly or completely bi-directional. Setting the road for a 'wrong line' movement would mean any train approaching on the inside line would be held at the outer home (if there was one) or even at the previous box until the movement was complete; using the right line as far as possible allows you to drop the empty DMU down to the crossover while the inner train approaches, then cross it over into the depot as soon as the inner train has passed. Dropping the empties down for a quick crossover once the service train has gone gets you brownie points for smart regulating; holding up the passenger while you clog up both lines with an unnecessary wrong road movement gets you a 'Please Explain...". Of course, if there's nothing due you can please yourself.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby Dale_the_noob » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:57 pm

Thanks for the input.

I could change the top fiddle yard into a branch terminus - I will see how it goes and leave it as an option.

How much height/space would I need for the point motors?

I'm going to try and play with the yard some more to see if I can get it the right way round so less shunting is needed.

locoworks
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - Advce on running and operation pleas

Postby locoworks » Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:00 am

though the point motor clearance could be an issue, you could mount the motor where it has clearance underneath and run a wire in tube from the motor to the tiebar.

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - I think my plan is there -last check

Postby Dale_the_noob » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:07 pm

Plan adjusted. Going to lose the fiddleyard as I'd rather 'play trains' and store the wagons/coaches on sidings and run a loco round.

So the plan, this one shows the track and the baseboard joins (6' x 3' and 4' x 3') as I need to be able to take it down....

Track.jpg
Track.jpg (108.62 KiB) Viewed 3010 times


This plan shows the height of the layout, the lightest colour will be the base layer, and the darkest the heighest. The height difference will be around 20mm between the layers. So the heighest layer will be easily able to cross the lowest layer (where the branchline crosses the mainline at the top right. The mainline will drop down as it goes right along the top and then go up again across the bottom after the sidings.

Baseboard height.jpg
Baseboard height.jpg (25.6 KiB) Viewed 2999 times


The final plan shows the scenary as it will be on the main part of the layout, its only rough at the moment.

Plan with scenary.jpg
Plan with scenary.jpg (128.84 KiB) Viewed 3009 times


Any comments appreciated, ordering the baseboards tomorrow, so should be here next week to start modifying.

locoworks
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - I think my plan is there -last check

Postby locoworks » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:14 am

the loops type fiddle yard you had in the firstplace would suit better. without that type every train would have to enter the fiddle yard from a clockwise direction which means running round every train from the station and sending it in on the correct line, which also means you'd have to run round it again in the yard, but the headshunt?? that comes back on the inner loop isn't really long enough for the siding length, and the connection back to the inner loop would be unnecessary if the diamond?? bottom right was a slip.this way the head shunt could be just that. then a line from the inner loop crossing the short straight directly to the headshunt. otherwise you will have to reverse trains in from the inner loop and long trains will bob their noses into the scenic section to do this? also from the outer loop there is no direct line into the yard?? so all traffic would need to be reversed in from the inner loop only?? i can't work out whether the 4 tracks on the left is supposed to be after a junction?? or up and down fast and slow lines?? if it's a junction i think the up and down lines would be in pairs and not 2 up 2 down?? it would be easier to keep it just twin track but i do like the looks of 4 tracks. also you nhave no headshunt for the 4 carriage sidings and not enough room to put them in one at a time withought going onto the mainline. sorry if this all sounds negative but i don't think the layout will work as you hope.

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Dale_the_noob
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Re: 10 x 3 N gauge layout - I think my plan is there -last check

Postby Dale_the_noob » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:39 am

Its 4 tracks so I can have a train pass another paused in the station.

Its also 2 double slips in the bottom right to help keep the siding length long

I'm split between a yard I can play with or a fiddleyard to just store trains. I can decide :?

I don't think the headshunt is long enough, but not sure what options there are, so I thought if I could use the running line for some extra headshunt space as i need it.

Part of the reason for the sidings rather than the fiddle yard is to allow the mainline to return back up to the height of the station (it drops down so that the branchline can clear it).

I'm going to print the layout out in full size and stick it together and then place my stock on it to see how it will look, how long trains can be etc. I will probably shrink the sidings length which will mean I don't need to use the slips and just use points instead. (Just done this and it looks better)


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