How much!!

[Bufferstop]

Is there anyone who gets involved with refurbishing MK1 coaches who can tell me why four solenoid operated door bolts and the wiring to operate them comes anywhere near the quoted price of £20,000 per coach. It sounds to me like another case of specifications getting gold plated.

[flying scotsman123]

That does seem a bit steep! In what context is this in? I only ask because I've seen that sort of figure quoted in conjunction with making Mk1s more suitable for mainline use before, but that was adding toilet tanks and all that bother.

Luckily neither are an issue on heritage railways, and shouldn't be for the foreseeable future. I've foten mused that if anything, the harder it is to make a Mk1 mainline acceptable the better as far as heritage railways are concerned, we we're looking forward to an influx of ex-mainline Mk1s in 2023 until we heard they might be granted another 10 years!

[Bufferstop]

It's for Mk1s used in tour trains by the likes of West coast and Riviera, they aren't likely to get their exemption extended, they already know they've got to put in the tanks. They already have manual bolts on the doors and they are nothing special, couple of quid apeice from B&Q. If those are acceptable for operation by attendants they don't need anything more complicated than a car's deadbolt mechanism for each door, which I think is what Virgin put in the black boxes above the doors on the Mk2s and Mk3s. I can see the retention problems with the tour trains they've got to retain everything until they can visit a depot. Chiltern's upgraded Mk3s get to visit the depot between trips.

[Mountain]

Everything used on the railway cost way more then it should and this is mainly due to regulations and unions. A train driver and I were at a certain station (I used to be a conductor (Guard)). A contractor came round asking where a certain gate was. This was a garden type of gateand his job was to fit a simple lock to it. He had the parts. The cost for the lock and the bolt was £75 to the railway which was more then double the cost you or I would pay for it at Max retail price in a store. Puzzled we asked and he said the reason why they cost so much was that it had to be "Officially approved" by someone in a professional capacity before it was allowed to be used. Preserved railways do have a slight advantage here on occasions, but if the part is just for railway use only, then each part is going to be very high.
A similar story goes for shop fittings. I once saw (While on the railway) stand up folder that screws to a wall for viewing use. Now I saw one in a shop suppliers and ordered one as I had an idea for its use. I almost fell over when I saw the price. As it was classed as a shop fitting it was £83. All it does is hold about 40 sheets of paper back to back in a file type book form to screw to a wall. Each pair of papers is held in a simple plastic folder that is in turn held into a simple metal backplate.
It wouldn't surprise me that if the same item was for sale with an intention for customer use it would be around £25 at the very most.

[Bufferstop]

Even with the inflated price for Railway approved items, those little black boxes that they fitted above the doors would struggle to raise £500 each, yet alone £20,000 for four, I can understand the costs involved in fitting the retention tanks, for starters Mk1s don't have anywhere to fit the above floor ones, so they'll have to be specials.

[Mountain]

It is excessive. I guess they charge that much because they can? Its not just model railways then!

[GWR_fan]

When working on international wide body aircraft I was always amazed at the prices charged for aircraft parts. I can understand certification and reliability guarantees on operational and safety items, however, simple items such as interior cosmetic components take the price of items to the extreme. In civil aviation items that are found on light aircraft have a direct relationship to everyday consumer use and yet those same items are much more expensive. To be considered for aircraft use a part must be tested and shown to be reliable and certified for use. This costs money. I regularly certified aircraft parts as serviceable, however, the cost of certification was far more than my direct wage in executing the certification. The airline that I worked for charged the client many times the actual cost of my wage in carrying out the certification. Similarly I presume with railways when a certifying signatory must approve a part for use. The actual prime cost of the item may be relatively low, however, certification approval is what pushes up the price.

I presume that like aviation, train authorities require equipment to be tested as reliable and certified to the standard required in the public interest. A simple gate lock may be adequate for an entry gate in a private home but woefully inadequate in an industrial setting. A solenoid lock used in a car's central locking system may work just fine for a car but I fail to see the same item being certified for use in a train. One can purchase a complete central locking system for a car for under $30.00 from aftermarket suppliers. However, the "same" door lock as supplied by say Mercedes, BMW or Rolls-Royce would be substantially more.

[b308]

It's nothing to do with the Unions, that's for sure, I don't know how that came into the conversation, or makes things more expensive!

I've long wondered why CDL isn't compulsory on the heritage stock that's used for the specials, they've had one or two near misses with doors already and their "door bolts" are about as effective as a chocolate teapot. Cost I'm not sure about, but it isn't just a case of a series of bolts like they have now. CDL involves every door being fitted with an electric door bolt (Mk1's have six doors as opposed to Mk3s four), electrical wiring between each bolt and all down the train, with electrical connections at each end of the coach and at least one control unit, usually in the Guard's compartment, there's also isolation equipment for each coach, fuses, etc. Perhaps the cost also includes the installation being checked and certified as well? Also the fitting of the electric wiring runs on an old coach like a Mk1 I suspect will be a nightmare as the runs will be in totally different places to the current lighting and mains wiring so they'll be pulling panels down all over the place and having to replace them as was.

Railway equipment always has been more expensive than stuff for home use or car use for one very good reason, the operating environment is much harsher than those two, and I mean much harsher. If you look back over the past few decades you will see many times when people have tried, and failed, to use domestic equipment in trains which then break or fail in very quick time! Equipment in aircraft tends to be expensive for the same reason, one reason much of our catering equipment comes from the aircraft industry, it's lightweight and durable.

I'd have to see how that £20k is broken down, but thinking about what's involved and the difficulties they will face I can see that it won't come cheap. Looking back at what I've said I suspect a fair chunk of that £20k will be wages for those involved as it'll be quite time consuming work.

[Bufferstop]

It still seems high compared to the cost of putting in the compliant and accessible toilets which seems a big job. BTW does anyone still use those centre doors. In all of the Mk1s I've ridden on the main line (all opens) the centre door is screwed shut and panelled over internally. The space being used as either luggage space or servery space for the stewards. The centre door did serve a useful purpose, on curved platforms either the end, or centre doors would be closer to the platform, us short legged types notice these things

[b308]

A toilet would be a lot easier, they are near the train electrical supply which can be fed directly rather than having to have new runs and it's more a question of some large hole drilling and pipe runs under the train to the tanks. None of which is located in a "sensitive" area like the runs for the doors.

It does sound a lot but as I said I'd like to see a breakdown of the 20k before passing judgement, but in view of the fact it's safety critical work and will involve some awkward wiring runs it may not be excessive.

[Bufferstop]

I'm surprised they aren't eyeing up the Mk2s and 3s that will shaken out of the system by the stuff being made redundant. Tyesley are talking about the Mk2s they are bringing to the tour market, if they have been in recent use they'll already have the door locks fitted. I must take a look, see how they fitted an accessible toilet in Chiltern's Mk3sI, presumably the saloon end partition is not structural. Who will want the ex HST Mk3s as they will have to fit them with traditional draw gear, and they'd want to re arrange the seating, the HST layout would definitely be unwelcome for leisure and tourism.

[Mountain]

One could always rescue a complete HST for preservation.

[Bufferstop]

Someone has,. I think they're called ScotRail.

[brit-in-bama]

oh its not just railways and aircraft, over here in the USA, if you have got to get a part for a boat, or a camper, either motorized or a trailer, you can easily be quoted either double or triple the price for the same thing in a local hardware store, I was helping one of my bosses a few years ago renovate his 40ft motor yacht, one of the hatches needed rebuilding, it had rotted away, both hinges and the latch were beyond repair, the hinge pins and clasp had simply worn away with age , so he looked to his boating stuff online (where he always bought stuff) and showed me the exact same brass items, total cost $250.00!!!! (parts and shipping form California(- and 4day delivery by truck))

so off I went to a local (old mom and pop) hardware shop, took the old ones with me, came back an hour later, plonked them on his desk, identical in every way (minus a little fish logo), total cost $26.00 (including tax), he was shocked, as he never thought of not buying boat stuff from a boat parts supplier!
(he knows better now!)
so it just seems to be world wide that they will charge whatever they can get away with.

[TimberSurf]

Lets put this into perspective, as mentioned above, a retrofit is way more expensive than a new build, they are not just a bolt, there needs to be feedback, a control system, interconnecting wiring and probably redundancy and backup (UPS), not to mention that as a safety system, they certification and verification. Given that a new coach is approximately £1,000,0000 ,£20K is just 2%, that does not sound overly expensive for a whole electrical system that's been retrofitted!