Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

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flying scotsman123
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:38 pm

b308 wrote:
flying scotsman123 wrote:Anything from a West Highland affair through to Shakespeares or what the NYMR do, which is more or less "running a scheduled passenger service open to all punters on a mainline"


You really do not understand the difference between a scheduled service run by a TOC and a heritage service do you. I've tried to explain that it's like comparing chalk and cheese and why but it's falling in deaf ears. All I'll say is that you are wrong, I've said why but I am not keeping on repeating myself. Heritage operators don't run commuter trains because the commitment in costs, etc., is far more than they can afford to. If you don't believe me then go and look at the franchise documents to see what the TOCs have to commit to.


I know it's different. I also know I don't understand all the reasons it's different. But heritage operators do run service trains, I see what the NYMR are doing at Whitby and wonder why it's not possible for WCRC to do the same at Windermere? To me that doesn't seem as chalk and cheese as you make out (i.e. difference between steam charter trains and normal commuter trains) I'm not saying it would be financially viable from a visitor numbers point of view, just that I don't see why the two situations are so different.
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b308
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:36 am

They could run charter trains if paths were available but to run a scheduled passenger service is completely different. The financial, staffing, insurance commitments are massively different and that's before you look at the commitments they would have to make if things went wrong. We get fined thousands if we cancel a service, hundreds per minute if we delay one and if we delay another TOC they can claim of us as well. That's before you take into account what the passenger can claim back if we are late or delayed.

Heritage services have none of those commitments and people who travel on their services tend to accept any delays as part and parcel of using old stock. That would not happen with our passengers who's expectations are entirely different, as are our services.

As I said, chalk and cheese.

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:54 am

b308 wrote:They could run charter trains if paths were available but to run a scheduled passenger service is completely different. The financial, staffing, insurance commitments are massively different and that's before you look at the commitments they would have to make if things went wrong. We get fined thousands if we cancel a service, hundreds per minute if we delay one and if we delay another TOC they can claim of us as well. That's before you take into account what the passenger can claim back if we are late or delayed.

Heritage services have none of those commitments and people who travel on their services tend to accept any delays as part and parcel of using old stock. That would not happen with our passengers who's expectations are entirely different, as are our services.

As I said, chalk and cheese.


I understand all that, and I agree that charters and normal services are chalk and cheese. But North York Moors to Whitby? They're not all charters are they?
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:31 am

As far as I know they are not scheduled services regulated by the DfT just feeder services to their railway on a very little used branch. I could be wrong on that but I don't think so, does anyone else know? The Windermere branch carries far more services several which are long distance where delays would be very costly for the company that caused them.

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:11 am

Under the revised new timetable it's reverting to a shuttle from Oxenholme to Windermere so the through services are gone. It was still a work in progress but looked as though the Manchester airport service for example would terminate at Preston, requiring a change to WCML or XC and a change at Oxenholme to the shuttle. The new timetable suffered a double whammy, not only did it require drivers with the route knowledge from further afield it also required drivers trained on the new electric units, and in some cases it needed both. Who didn't see that coming when they planned the timetable.
Tim Farron is now calling for the Cumbrian services to be spun off to a separate mini franchise. With DRS already operating a semi public passenger service over much of the coastal route, the only fly in the ointment would be the lack of a connection at Carnforth, time to reinstate the mainline platforms? It's a long way south to Lancaster or Preston for passengers to change direction, it's likely to be one of those services that has no demand because it's more than fifty years since it was available. The people of the Lakes would see the sense in a Park and Ride based on Truckhaven at Junction 35 with services on both the coast and lakes lines so maybe a chord between the WCML and the old L&Y wouldn't be just pie in the sky.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 pm

b308 wrote:As far as I know they are not scheduled services regulated by the DfT just feeder services to their railway on a very little used branch. I could be wrong on that but I don't think so, does anyone else know? The Windermere branch carries far more services several which are long distance where delays would be very costly for the company that caused them.


I'm not totally sure what the situation is, but I know for a fact that NYMR are fined if they delay the other services on the line, but somehow they don't get compensation if they get delayed by the normal trains on the line.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:04 am

They aren't scheduled services then. Probably just feeder services for their railway. They may get some recompense if they are delayed but it depends on the agreement they have.

Thanks for the clarification Bufferstop. I wonder if it's just temporary until northern have sorted themselves out.

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:57 pm

I guess it's as "temporary" as temporary ever is.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby manna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:57 am

G'day Gents

Come back Colonel Stevens, your input is required.............. :lol:

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby stuartp » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:00 am

NYMR are an open access operator for delay attribution purposes. The DA scheme only applies to franchised services so they are liable if they delay a franchised service but are not entitled to compensation themselves for their non-franchised service. I believe their liability is capped below that which a franchised operator would be expected to pay, so they get a discount in effect.

In other words, they take the commercial risk of operating their profit making service in amongst the tax-payer funded ones; conversely they are not penalised for the cancellation if they decide not to run for whatever reason.

Northern service is back on the Windermere branch as of last week so Colonel Stephens is not / no longer required.
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b308
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:02 am

Thanks for clarifying that, Stuart, I'd have been surprised if they hadn't been liable, though there's hardly any services on that line anyhow so they are probably safe!

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:20 pm

stuartp wrote:Northern service is back on the Windermere branch as of last week so Colonel Stephens is not / no longer required.


I gather it's only their franchise commitment, which is the shuttle service! Perhaps the Colonel would be useful, put a bit of blue sky thinking into their planning department.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 pm

God forbid! Have you ever looked closely how his railways were run? They make the current franchise operator's cost cutting exercise look like major spending exercises instead. They may have been fine for a hardly used branch line in the early part of the 20th century but for a modern railway?!! Let's get real, folks!

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby cantmodelwontmodel » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:37 pm

My understanding is that it was costing the government £6K a day to put this on at that rate the line would be up for closure in a few months. I think the problem stems from the branch no longer operating as a branch but as an extension of other services to make it more viable

The main problem was that delays and over runs on other projects such as Blackpool electrification has meant they were not ready to implement the new time table so it should have been postponed until they were ready :roll:
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:17 pm

The Govt. were having to pick up the bill as West Coast isn't licenced to run scheduled services. I don't know what individual services cost to run, but I would have thought £6k per day was a bargain price. Only the franchised operator or the ORR can run scheduled services without having to gain approval. ATM they're running a daily service provided by DRS to get workers to Sellafield. It wasn't provide for in the franchise and I guess Northern don't have the spare capacity to run it.
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