Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

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Bufferstop
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Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:22 pm

Windermere's replacement bus service laid on by Northern rail because they don't have the staff to run the trains, has been replaced, by a train put on by West Coast Rail West Coast's replacement train Why couldn't Northern have thought of that, in fact why isn't the branch run as a heritage line anyway?
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby End2end » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:23 am

Carry on up the line? :lol:
Sid would be having a field day.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Lancastrian » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:52 am

I have been watching this story with interest and thought that the 'Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway' might have been able to step in to help somehow.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby luckymucklebackit » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:21 am

Thing the branch line revenue will be substantially augmented by haulage bashers, just waiting to hear the complaints from the locals about the trains being full of rowdy enthusiasts :D

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:45 am

I understand that to avoid legal complications the DoT , O of R&R, or somebody, are paying the running costs and travel is free! If that doesn't P off the bus operators running the replacement nothing will. WCR are the obvious choice to provide the service, only having to come from Carnforth at the start of the day. I thought that if the line does get electrified it could provide somewhere to run heritage EMUs, my impression was that no one was complaining at having to change at Oxenholme if the train was a bit special, makes up a bit for getting dumped between Booths' and Lakeland's car parks and having to exit via Booths' goods entrance. The idea of having a through service to Manchester Airport etc. falls a bit flat when the first leg of the journey is always in the sights for being replaced by busses.

[Edit] just spotted in Tim Farron's photo the wires are already up!
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:03 am

Bufferstop wrote: in fact why isn't the branch run as a heritage line anyway?


Because then you wouldn't be able to run a Public Service without other major costs... The SVR, amongst others, have looked long and hard about providing a commuter service (Kiddy to Bewdley in their case) but to costs of making the line up to the standards required and providing qualified staff and suitable stock is prohibitive so they don't bother. If it had have closed in the 60s it would have been no doubt... But there'd be no public service and I suspect most passengers would be on a bus instead!

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:12 pm

Perhaps the franchise should recognise the special nature of the line and be tasked with providing a service aimed at tourists. Northern are now planning to operate it as a shuttle so let's at least have a tourist friendly shuttle. The reactions of those first users to a loco with the "Lakelander" headboard was a good indicator of what the customer would like. The last time I travelled by train to Windermere it was a WCML electric to Oxenholme and even then changing to a DMU shuttle, reached by going through an archway between platforms was like entering a different world.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:27 pm

b308 wrote:
Bufferstop wrote: in fact why isn't the branch run as a heritage line anyway?


Because then you wouldn't be able to run a Public Service without other major costs... The SVR, amongst others, have looked long and hard about providing a commuter service (Kiddy to Bewdley in their case) but to costs of making the line up to the standards required and providing qualified staff and suitable stock is prohibitive so they don't bother. If it had have closed in the 60s it would have been no doubt... But there'd be no public service and I suspect most passengers would be on a bus instead!


Upgrading a heritage line to run a public service is completely different to running a heritage service on a (not very busy) mainline though, see the West Highland line and the Esk Valley line. All you need is some mainline certified stock and a license. A shame there are no run round loops on the branch any more, otherwise surely it would see more regular steam given its proximity to Carnforth.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:38 pm

A loop could soon be reinstated, just at the loss of one row of parked cars. Winderemere station was never very well placed for day trippers, too far from the lake. Reconnecting Lakeside to the network would be extremely difficult. May have to remain pipe dreams.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:57 pm

flying scotsman123 wrote:
b308 wrote:
Bufferstop wrote: in fact why isn't the branch run as a heritage line anyway?


Because then you wouldn't be able to run a Public Service without other major costs... The SVR, amongst others, have looked long and hard about providing a commuter service (Kiddy to Bewdley in their case) but to costs of making the line up to the standards required and providing qualified staff and suitable stock is prohibitive so they don't bother. If it had have closed in the 60s it would have been no doubt... But there'd be no public service and I suspect most passengers would be on a bus instead!


Upgrading a heritage line to run a public service is completely different to running a heritage service on a (not very busy) mainline though, see the West Highland line and the Esk Valley line. All you need is some mainline certified stock and a license. A shame there are no run round loops on the branch any more, otherwise surely it would see more regular steam given its proximity to Carnforth.


And paid staff and insurance and financial backup in case things go wrong and people sue you. It's not as simple as you make out or everyone would be doing it. To make it work you'd have to provide a reliable and timetabled service which must be reliable. Something heritage services are not known for

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:29 pm

b308 wrote:And paid staff and insurance and financial backup in case things go wrong and people sue you. It's not as simple as you make out or everyone would be doing it. To make it work you'd have to provide a reliable and timetabled service which must be reliable. Something heritage services are not known for


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Hopefully that picture will work.

And to counter your second sentence; if it were impossible, nobody would be doing it! Of course it's not easy, but it would be possible. My main point was that the cost of upgrading heritage railways have no bearing on the subject.
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:01 am

I didn't say it was impossible, just very difficult. Also no-one is currently running a scheduled passenger service open to all punters on a mainline, the West Highland service is a special open only to special ticket holders so the are not subject to the same regulations as the TOCs or Open Access operators.

You cannot compare a heritage line which is totally self contained with main line operation where plenty of other things affect running. Ask yourself why the Island Line and Chiltern have the best figures. They operate almost entirely on lines which they have full control of, that's why.

The subject is the Windermere branch so what I said has everything to do with what we are discussing.

Will this heritage train you are talking about be a scheduled service subject to Dft regulation and expected to take paying punters who have tickets to Windermere front other parts of the network who can then sue the operator if it is late or cancelled? Or is it just a special like the Highland line one? Two very different scenarios.

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby flying scotsman123 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:39 pm

b308 wrote:I didn't say it was impossible, just very difficult. Also no-one is currently running a scheduled passenger service open to all punters on a mainline, the West Highland service is a special open only to special ticket holders so the are not subject to the same regulations as the TOCs or Open Access operators.

You cannot compare a heritage line which is totally self contained with main line operation where plenty of other things affect running. Ask yourself why the Island Line and Chiltern have the best figures. They operate almost entirely on lines which they have full control of, that's why.

The subject is the Windermere branch so what I said has everything to do with what we are discussing.

Will this heritage train you are talking about be a scheduled service subject to Dft regulation and expected to take paying punters who have tickets to Windermere front other parts of the network who can then sue the operator if it is late or cancelled? Or is it just a special like the Highland line one? Two very different scenarios.


Anything from a West Highland affair through to Shakespeares or what the NYMR do, which is more or less "running a scheduled passenger service open to all punters on a mainline" - Swanage soon will be too. Not a year round commuter service in steam, but something maybe during the summer holidays etc. If it's decided it's not financially viable in terms of popularity then fair enough, but it's not the hardest thing in the world to achieve. As WCRC are already running trains on the windermere branch, once noramal service has been resumed switching to steam, fitting in between the normal service and charging for it is basically what the NYMR do at Whitby no? I'd have thought it would be easier to set up that Whitby, as WCRC are already a steam TOC. Still lots of paperwork, but what doesn't require lots of paperwork these days?
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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby luckymucklebackit » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:42 pm

I hear that they have put 33029 on the service today, pity it is so far away, would be nice to hear that BRCW sound in the hills again. Train was busy!

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Re: Windermere's replacement bus service replaced

Postby b308 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:29 pm

flying scotsman123 wrote:Anything from a West Highland affair through to Shakespeares or what the NYMR do, which is more or less "running a scheduled passenger service open to all punters on a mainline"


You really do not understand the difference between a scheduled service run by a TOC and a heritage service do you. I've tried to explain that it's like comparing chalk and cheese and why but it's falling in deaf ears. All I'll say is that you are wrong, I've said why but I am not keeping on repeating myself. Heritage operators don't run commuter trains because the commitment in costs, etc., is far more than they can afford to. If you don't believe me then go and look at the franchise documents to see what the TOCs have to commit to.

Just to give you one example. Say they cancelled the last train due to unit failure and there was a passenger with a valid ticket and connection to Glasgow. A TOC has to provide "onward transport" - in this case a taxi costing hundreds of pounds. This is not uncommon. A heritage operator does not have the same responsibility but would if they operated a scheduled passenger service. As I said, chalk and cheese.

Hope that clarifies things.
Last edited by b308 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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