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Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:43 am
by GWR_fan
While searching Google images for photographs of HST Mk3 buffet cars I chanced upon an unusual coach formation. We had the two power cars in Intercity Swallow livery with two Swallow livery buffet cars tailed by an Executive livery TGS with the buffet ends towards the TGS coach. The heading on the photo just stated "HST 3 car Abergele". This was just a three car formation.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:02 pm
by HarryR
Was it this?

http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/HST%203%20car%20Abergele.jpg

A site about the railways of North Wales, new to me thanks to you, the text says 'early crew training used shorter sets' dates from 1991.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:05 pm
by GWR_fan
Yes, that is the image. I thought that if one modelled this scene then one would be criticised as such a possibility would be improbable and yet there it is. Many thanks.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:07 pm
by HarryR
GWR_fan wrote:Yes, that is the image. I thought that if one modelled this scene then one would be criticised as such a possibility would be improbable and yet there it is. Many thanks.


No worries, looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

They say there's a prototype for everything, presumably the Virgin Azuma training schedule involves something similar (wink)

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:16 pm
by GWR_fan
As regards the Virgin Azuma I have only seen training runs on You-Tube using full length trains.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:19 pm
by HarryR
GWR_fan wrote:As regards the Virgin Azuma I have only seen training runs on You-Tube using full length trains.


I have no idea what their training arrangements actually are, only reflecting on the application of modellers licence, based on the 1991 photo.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:28 pm
by b308
At one point one of our HSTs was knocking around with two power cars and three coaches (it was supposed to be 2+5). I don't know what the three coaches were, though I suspect one would have been the TGS...

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:36 pm
by hairyhandedfool
The new 'Azuma' trains will have full sets for training because they are proper fixed formation units (unlike the HST). I believe training runs in BR days tended to use what was available, and they did have spare HST power cars and Mk3 coaches at the time. I recall the class 91s being tested initially with Mk3 sleeper coaches before entering service (as no mk4s had been built at that stage).

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:02 pm
by GWR_fan
hairyhandedfool wrote:................I recall the class 91s being tested initially with Mk3 sleeper coaches before entering service (as no mk4s had been built at that stage).


7 min. 43 sec. from the beginning has a class 91 with mk3 sleepers and a class 43 DVT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVoKZlSXjs

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:03 am
by b308
Wrong way round, GWR, the pan was down on the 91 and the power was being supplied by the 43, it was a "91 DVT"!! ;)

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:26 pm
by hairyhandedfool
I believe there are some pictures on traintesting.com in any case.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:51 pm
by GWR_fan
RMWeb has an informative multi page thread on class 91 and mk3 coaches, including mention of testing in 1988 with a class 91, mk3 sleepers and a class 43 DVT.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:51 pm
by Bufferstop
b308 wrote:Wrong way round, GWR, the pan was down on the 91 and the power was being supplied by the 43, it was a "91 DVT"!! ;)

I can see why GWR_fan was confused, no smoke from the 43, even though its roof had plenty of evidence of it. Did anyone ever really think that diesels weren't polluting.

Re: Unusual HST formation

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:32 am
by GWR_fan
Initially the class 91 was used for traction with the class 43 idling to provide power for engine train heating. However, long periods of idling caused a buildup of raw fuel in the exhaust which soon became a fire hazard. After this the class 43 was used for traction as well as providing power as the class 91 was single phase and the class 43 triple phase power.

The class 91 usually lead the set out of London and apparently the train went like a rocket with the combined electric and diesel traction. I suppose at some point a failure enroute may have required diesel traction only. The sleeper train as in the video was a test train only so who knows what test procedures were being used at the time.