HS2 phase two

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b308
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:10 pm

Careful folks we're going a little off topic! :wink:

ollieollieollie
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:16 pm

GarrettTheThief wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote:A new railway that will benifit more than a minority is not papering over cracks. Trying to find small improvements here & there that will be worthless in a few years time is papering over cracks.

But these small things suggested by b308 add up to a substantial improvement which increases capacity for the lines that need it the most, HS2 will only increase capacity for a small part of the country. It won't benefit more than a minority.

I'm sure the residents of the small towns of Leeds, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield that the line will serve & who will benefit from thescheme will enjoy being called a minority!

ollieollieollie wrote:Not liking the idea of HS2 just because the money could be spent elsewhere is ludicrus.


It's not if the benefits of spending it "elsewhere" outweigh the benefits of HS2.


Spending it elsewhere is just putting a sticking plaster on the problem, so they don't.

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:18 pm

b308 wrote:If the figures were the other way round, Ollie, £9bn on HS2 and £33bn on existing network I'd have no objections! :wink:

I'm sure with a little creative accounting they could do it! :lol:


I agree it's alot of money but if you look at what is being spent over the next few Decades elsewhere, then you will find that it too is a massive sum.

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:24 pm

b308 wrote:
GarrettTheThief wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote:Not liking the idea of HS2 just because the money could be spent elsewhere is ludicrus.


It's not if the benefits of spending it "elsewhere" outweigh the benefits of HS2.


Spot on Garrett... Something that just can't be seen by HS2 supporters unfortunately....


If all you have as arguement is that someone who doesn't agree with your views is blinkered and you need to put ..... at the end of a sentence then really you don't have a case. That is not debate.

I'm done on this topic. I have my views & you are entitled to yours, however wrong they may be! :D

b308
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:42 pm

ollieollieollie wrote:If all you have as arguement is that someone who doesn't agree with your views is blinkered and you need to put ..... at the end of a sentence then really you don't have a case. That is not debate.


Actually Ollie I have given an awful lot of reasoned argument why the money would be better spent elsewhere on the network which you have chosen to ignore and reply with absolutely no reasoning of your own why I am wrong but a continual repeating of one item, that the WCML is near capacity. You have not even justified why that one main line which is nowhere near as near to capacity as many others should take priority over the others... So calling me blinkered is a bit rich, frankly. Sorry, m8, but on this one we'll have to agree to differ, though unfortunately with this lot in charge I'm afraid you'll get your way. In 10/20 years time the Country will regret this shortsightedness... :roll:

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby GarrettTheThief » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:56 pm

Yeah, it's easier to hone in on something trivial and come out with the bottom of the barrel under your fingernails, than actually defend your points and hold yourself accountable for your opinions.

But I'm not going to argue with someone who refuses to do so and consider what the opposition is saying, so whatever the f***.
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby Terrier » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:14 pm

Quite a 'hot topic' this one, i can see it has divided forum members as much as the actual plans have divided political opinion.

The whole thing does remind me of a local bus lane project that was implimented to give bus priority along essentially whatwas at one time the old Horndean Light Railway, or London Road/ A3, from Horndean to Cosham (north of portsmouth) ...expensive, didn't really seem all that logical a move to most (not all, but most) and has basically turned out to be a white elephant.. a very very very expensive white elephant. however, the high speed rail links between London, leeds and Manchester, may turn out to be worth the expenditure, jobs are being created etc etc, on the downside, some areas of beautiful are going to disappear, and it might turn out to be a little bit like our local bus priority route in the end. But hey, looks like it's going ahead anyway, so my opinion is probably about as relevant as my poxy insignificant vote at the ballot box..

Do try to keep it civil chaps

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:59 am

b308 wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote:If all you have as arguement is that someone who doesn't agree with your views is blinkered and you need to put ..... at the end of a sentence then really you don't have a case. That is not debate.


Actually Ollie I have given an awful lot of reasoned argument why the money would be better spent elsewhere on the network which you have chosen to ignore and reply with absolutely no reasoning of your own why I am wrong but a continual repeating of one item, that the WCML is near capacity. You have not even justified why that one main line which is nowhere near as near to capacity as many others should take priority over the others... So calling me blinkered is a bit rich, frankly. Sorry, m8, but on this one we'll have to agree to differ, though unfortunately with this lot in charge I'm afraid you'll get your way. In 10/20 years time the Country will regret this shortsightedness... :roll:

You know I've had alot of arguments and discussions about HS2 on many forums and facebook and every HS2 supporter has reacted in exactly the same way. They just wont listen to any reasoned argument for an alternative cost effective improvement to our railways that will benefit a far wider audience. They state government speculation as if its guarenteed to happen. I live right next to the WCML, and you been a railway man yourself will know, its nowhere near capacity. Not by a long shot.

b308
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:05 am

Chris, it's split the Railwaymen as well as enthusiasts and politicians, as you can see one here with our small example, we've had similar discussions at work, though as Eagle says it tends to be one-sided as the "fors" don't want to listen, regarding it as a "done deal" which it probably is... As you say a really "hot topic"!

What I'd love to se is a totally integrated Public Transport Network, though that would take a lot of commitment from the powers that be as well as the money, that's why I get frustrated when I see something on which so much money is being spent but for so little gain!

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby beeman » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:31 am

something on which so much money is being spent but for so little gain!
WHAT is the Gain. ? to move a certain few people around. I suspect not to be used for freight transport of our exports. I imagine most business these days is done by 'internet' . and as posted those needing personal contact find it as cheap/quicker to fly. that stated as an attempt to reduce internal flights on 'Question Time' last eve. what might be the real reason. Agreed, jobs in the interim while constructed, but heavily subsidised at the travellers/taxpayers expense after. This money would be far better spent on the 'Severn Barrage' , providing construction jobs and a sustainable. regular continuous energy input for this country , NOT needing subsidies once built, just good clean financial I/P for the UK. no intermittent wind needed.My suspicions are ' many' pushing are those who will gain financially.and as usual could not 'give a ' about the rest as long as they 'get'. Beeman.
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amsie
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby amsie » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:44 pm

Personally I think its a great idea.

Having worked for BR and a County Council in my working lifetime plus worked on decent homes projects and Housing association refurbishments/newbuilds, i've seen more public money wasted than I can care to remember so a few billion more won't hurt. At least its something im interested in.

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:01 pm

b308 wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote:If all you have as arguement is that someone who doesn't agree with your views is blinkered and you need to put ..... at the end of a sentence then really you don't have a case. That is not debate.


Actually Ollie I have given an awful lot of reasoned argument why the money would be better spent elsewhere on the network which you have chosen to ignore and reply with absolutely no reasoning of your own why I am wrong but a continual repeating of one item, that the WCML is near capacity. You have not even justified why that one main line which is nowhere near as near to capacity as many others should take priority over the others... So calling me blinkered is a bit rich, frankly. Sorry, m8, but on this one we'll have to agree to differ, though unfortunately with this lot in charge I'm afraid you'll get your way. In 10/20 years time the Country will regret this shortsightedness... :roll:


I did not & have not called you blinkered. That has been aimed at me because I hold a different viewpoint to the anti brigade so please do not accuse me of name calling. I have not ignored your reasoned argument about where the money would be better spent. It would just be sticking plasters & would not address the issue at the heart of this Topic. Oxford, which you mentioned several times, I believe has a plan in place/being planned for some improvements. Tell me how HS2 is taking money away from this project? I keep mentioning a North South route not just the the WCML. The moment I was called blinkered & the snipping started about The for HS2 brigade don't listen postings started was the moment the argument against collapsed in this "debate". Have nothing constructive to say so will just attack the person who does. Like playground bullies. Lastly, Racist remarks about Romanian Taxi drivers was the last straw. Again nothing constructive to say so attack someone/a group of people. Here goes for a barrage of thats not racist post now I suspect. Replace the word Romanian with Black or Asian. Racist now?

I'm frankly suprised that so called rail enthusiasts are against an additional £32 billion improvement to our rail network,& it is additional, to the Billions being spent elsewhere.

Over to you Amsie. Still time to retract your support for HS2 before you become "blinkered".

b308
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:47 pm

ollieollieollie wrote:If all you have as arguement is that someone who doesn't agree with your views is blinkered and you need to put


ollieollieollie wrote:I did not & have not called you blinkered.


I rest my case...



ollieollieollie wrote:I'm frankly suprised that so called rail enthusiasts are against an additional £32 billion improvement to our rail network,& it is additional, to the Billions being spent elsewhere.


As I said you are just not listening to those of us who oppose it and that statement clearly shows it. I am NOT against £33bn being spent on railways, I'd be damn stupid to be against it, especially as a working railwayman who wants railways to be used... What I AM against is a gross waste of money that this represents if it is spent on HS2... They are spending only £9bn on the existing networks, Ollie, and £5bn of that is NOT new money but existing spend. I travel all over the country on our trains and see daily the issues we have to deal with that this line will do damn all for. Sensibly spent money I'm all for, the waste that this represents makes me want to cry out in frustration...

As I said before, make it £9bn on HS2 and £33bn on the existing network and you'll have mine, and I believe, many others', support.

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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ASFC » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:14 am

b308 wrote:As I said before, make it £9bn on HS2 and £33bn on the existing network and you'll have mine, and I believe, many others', support.


I know this is going into the murky world of Govt 'accounting' etc, but....

Isn't that £9 billion to be spent over a five year 'Control Period'? Just like they spent £10 billion in the current five year 'Control Period'?

It that is true, then surely over the life of HS2, if it is built, there will be 4 of these 'Control Periods', so potentially that is 4 lots of £x billion. Doesn't quite seem like a fair comparison any more?

Lies, damn lies and Government statistics! :lol:

(Just food for thought you understand, i'm all for more investment in the current network!)
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Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:51 am

I know one thing for sure, it doesn't matter how much we write and argue about the subject on here, it wont make the slightest difference to whether it gets built or not.


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