HS2 phase two

Discuss real world railway operations in this forum. Find out how to make your model railway as accurate as possible.
User avatar
ASFC
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ASFC » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:59 pm

D605Eagle wrote:I really dont see what the Chinese are building in the far east has to do with our economy. Building HS2 wont make one iota difference to the cost of doing anything in this country so how it will enable us to compete with the Chinese I dont follow. For sure we need to start building things to boot the economy back into gear, but sadly we'll personally have very little input into HS2's construction other than providing the money. Everything will be imported including much of the labour, but dont worry, a service depot will be built somewhere and we'll all be told how 20000 jobs will be created and everything will be rosy.....not.


Yes but having an efficient, sustainable and reliable transport network is necessary if we are to grow our economy.

Whether that means HS2, new airports, new roads etc, it is required. They had one lady on the news the other night who objected to the line because she might not to live to see it in operation. Now what sort of shortsightedness is that?

If every Victorian had the attitude I see some people display over HS2 then we would still be living in a pre-industrial age wouldn't we? ( Some might argue that would be no bad thing!)

I don't see a right or wrong answer to this debate. It is just infuriating that some of the anti brigade in the media are anti 'just because'.

Mat.
My New N gauge layout thread 'Chinley': viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41038

My Old N gauge layout thread 'Ollerton': viewtopic.php?f=22&t=32899

User avatar
D605Eagle
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:06 pm

ASFC wrote:
D605Eagle wrote:I really dont see what the Chinese are building in the far east has to do with our economy. Building HS2 wont make one iota difference to the cost of doing anything in this country so how it will enable us to compete with the Chinese I dont follow. For sure we need to start building things to boot the economy back into gear, but sadly we'll personally have very little input into HS2's construction other than providing the money. Everything will be imported including much of the labour, but dont worry, a service depot will be built somewhere and we'll all be told how 20000 jobs will be created and everything will be rosy.....not.


Yes but having an efficient, sustainable and reliable transport network is necessary if we are to grow our economy.


I dont disagree at all. An integrated transport network for the future is whats deperately needed after years and years of neglect. I just dont see HS2 helping that much for the cost. In my opinion new freight lines built to a proper loading gauge would be much more beneficial not only removing slow freight off our main lines but removing many lorry movements off our motorways too. But I see that its not a flash scheme and wouldn't be seen as a shining showpiece to the rest of Europe and I think that one reason its never even been mentioned by the powers that be.

User avatar
TK421
Posts: 962
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: Faringdon with one R

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby TK421 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:52 pm

D605Eagle wrote: Isn't it just typically British that as you say a near perfect layout is achieved and then totally ignored for new/upgraded stations.


The answer to that is simple... Money
Commander tear this ship apart until you have found them track plans!

ollieollieollie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Sunny Norfolk

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:55 pm

beeman wrote:The Great Central showed/proved the lack of forthought that too often exists in this country. In a few years, remember what is being 'said' at present re Mali/Africa. remember Afghanistan !.What a boon the old G.C. route right into the centre of Leicester would be now.especially if the Gap at Loughborough was reinstated.The Bl**dy minded attitude of BR in destroying all the Leicester canal bridges,costing more than the re cycled scrap was worth, other places suffering similar fates I'm sure.much of it for the as usual 'Housing' need. Oh for a crystal ball, preferably to knock some sense into the 'planners'..The 'Grinding Halt Ollie..... suggests will come, Those working to keep those not, insufficient jobs not being created, 'buyers' not wanting our goods, too high a price against others due to taxation/services . The 'Balance' being weighted the wrong way. Building new railways will not address, other than short term for the contractors.Unlikely the majority of the 'plebs' will be able to afford a 'bl**dy ticket. Beeman.


Our goods are expensive because we pay a living wage compared with the far east. As far as I know we do not have sweat shops here with children working 14 hours a day, 7 days aweek for nothing. If we could move our goods quicker & more efficiently we may be able to become more competitive. You mention insufficient jobs. About 100,000 people will be kept in work for a considerable time when the project goes ahead & countless thousands when it is completed to maintain & run it. HS2 will get used. There is a need for it or something similar & as much as we would all like to see the Great Central running again it would not be a viable option against a High Speed Route that connects the capital with the north.

beeman
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Within earshot of the sea and the Paignton&Dartmouth

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby beeman » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:21 pm

Watching Dan Snows program yesterday eve was interesting as to how the Railways 'exploded' the economies of other countries. BUT in each case they had something to shift/sell, the railway providing the MEANS. The Victorians were in the same position during the Industrial Revolution with ' innovations' the rest of the World wanted. The same reason the Chinese built the railway in Zambia to the coast to transport the copper. Where are the UK 'innovations' today, the world wants/needs ?. I would think more travel IN than OUT. About the only 'commodity' in that 'box' is Rolls Royce and the Aerospace industry, and they don't need trains when it flies. The 100000 jobs created wont bring in a penny in foreign sales of goods but plenty of currency flowing out on foreign machinery and rolling stock/trains etc. even the track likely made by India steel companies. Noticed how the machinery on the Crossrail project is almost all German built.? I would have hoped those able to rationalise could see a similar situation to the EU Project here. Its ok throwing taxpayers money IN but NOT if like Greece and even Spain the infrastructure and economy cannot sustain it in the World Marketplace without continuous subsidy
countless thousands when it is completed to maintain & run it
.and like the present railways ,subsided by the taxpayer. CASE PROVEN. Beeman
You wo'nt find you 'CAN' unless you 'TRY'.

User avatar
D605Eagle
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:53 pm

TK421 wrote:
D605Eagle wrote: Isn't it just typically British that as you say a near perfect layout is achieved and then totally ignored for new/upgraded stations.


The answer to that is simple... Money

And how many times has it been proved that the short sightedness of saving money initially has ended up costing many times more?

User avatar
D605Eagle
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:58 pm

ollieollieollie wrote:. HS2 will get used.

Says whom? More likely it will be like the M6 toll road. A fairly useless waste of money that caused a great deal of people aggravation as it carved up roads that people used and kicked people out their homes.

User avatar
TK421
Posts: 962
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:42 pm
Location: Faringdon with one R

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby TK421 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:33 pm

D605Eagle wrote:
TK421 wrote:
D605Eagle wrote: Isn't it just typically British that as you say a near perfect layout is achieved and then totally ignored for new/upgraded stations.


The answer to that is simple... Money

And how many times has it been proved that the short sightedness of saving money initially has ended up costing many times more?


Your preaching to the converted there my friend I know of many times it's happened on the railway.
Commander tear this ship apart until you have found them track plans!

b308
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: North Worcs

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:27 pm

ollieollieollie wrote: About 100,000 people will be kept in work for a considerable time when the project goes ahead


I really can't see that... At least not in this country... There will be the people designing and building it, but it certainly won't run to anywhere near those figures... I'm assuming you are quoting a source Ollie, any chance of a link?

ollieollieollie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Sunny Norfolk

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:46 pm

D605Eagle wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote:. HS2 will get used.

Says whom? More likely it will be like the M6 toll road. A fairly useless waste of money that caused a great deal of people aggravation as it carved up roads that people used and kicked people out their homes.


Simple. The people who can afford it will use it & the "plebs" that you quote will stay on the the slow trains. Not a chance! If you can save several hours of your day by getting on a non stop or limited stop high speed train rather than a slower all stations stopper you will do it, even if it cost a little more. I'm just booking my flights to California & having been offered an indirect flight which will take in 3 hours of tarmac in Toronto on the way or a direct flight for £38 per person more guess which one I've gone for?

ollieollieollie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Sunny Norfolk

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:49 pm

b308 wrote:
ollieollieollie wrote: About 100,000 people will be kept in work for a considerable time when the project goes ahead


I really can't see that... At least not in this country... There will be the people designing and building it, but it certainly won't run to anywhere near those figures... I'm assuming you are quoting a source Ollie, any chance of a link?


I believe it was on the BBC News website or maybe on the NWR intranet. Can you give me a link to your "wont run into anywhere near those figures"?

Still haven't seen anyone come up with a solution to the impending problem.

b308
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: North Worcs

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:00 pm

You quoted a figure and said it was for the construction of the line, unless we've gone back to Victorian times there is no way we'd get anywhere near those figures. In fact even the building of the individual trunk lines in the 1830s and 40s didn't use that many people... That's why I asked for a link. I recon 10k max would be nearer the mark, and many of them would be overseas in construction of stock and electrical equipment. The actual builders (navvies of old) would be quite small as it's all mechanised these days...

As for the rest, I've already said how and in some cases where I'd spend the money, all of which would increase capacity across the system, not just the WCML... With £33bn to spend the list could be very large, HS2 won't solve the problems elsewhere on the system, in fact it will make things worse as the money which could be used in other places will be wasted on HS2...

ollieollieollie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Sunny Norfolk

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby ollieollieollie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:27 pm

b308 wrote:You quoted a figure and said it was for the construction of the line, unless we've gone back to Victorian times there is no way we'd get anywhere near those figures. In fact even the building of the individual trunk lines in the 1830s and 40s didn't use that many people... That's why I asked for a link. I recon 10k max would be nearer the mark, and many of them would be overseas in construction of stock and electrical equipment. The actual builders (navvies of old) would be quite small as it's all mechanised these days...

As for the rest, I've already said how and in some cases where I'd spend the money, all of which would increase capacity across the system, not just the WCML... With £33bn to spend the list could be very large, HS2 won't solve the problems elsewhere on the system, in fact it will make things worse as the money which could be used in other places will be wasted on HS2...


The problem is north to south & what HS2 is about. Building loops just admits we have a problem with capacity. Opening minor branch lines does nothing for anyone. Huge sums are being spent on improvements elsewhere & this is not affected by building HS2. No point spending £10 billion building a spur to Boggle Hole when only 5 hikers a day will use it. The additional money, over & above the rest of the improvements to the network needs to be spent on a North South route.

We are not in the 1830's & 40's. Construction workers stay in B&B's rather than tents nowadays. They stay in Villages & towns. They spend their wages locally thus creating employment too. This is how employment figures are worked out. There may only be 10k workers on the ground, but they will be backed up by 5 times as many support staff & office bods. All mechanised these days? Have you seen how many people are on the ground doing manual work during any kind of renewal/new track laying?

Still no real alternative offered.

User avatar
D605Eagle
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby D605Eagle » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:29 am

ollieollieollie wrote:
Still no real alternative offered.

Still nothing but pure speculation put forwards. Plenty of alternatives offered, but all pro HS2 are massively blinkered

b308
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: North Worcs

Re: HS2 phase two

Postby b308 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:51 am

ollieollieollie wrote:[We are not in the 1830's & 40's. Construction workers stay in B&B's rather than tents nowadays. They stay in Villages & towns. They spend their wages locally thus creating employment too. This is how employment figures are worked out. There may only be 10k workers on the ground, but they will be backed up by 5 times as many support staff & office bods. All mechanised these days? Have you seen how many people are on the ground doing manual work during any kind of renewal/new track laying?

Still no real alternative offered.


As you are repeating your question about "alternative" I'll throw it back to you... "They" say that the WCML is on the point of collapse yet the initial stretch of line will only open in 13 years so what's going to happen in the mean time? The rest won't happen for several years longer, same question? The fact is the "capacity" is the only real argument for HS2 that could make any sense, but it relies on their "guestimates" being correct... I still challenge you on the construction workers figures, they will use existing facilities so they are not creating extra jobs, just using existing ones. I'd also question the 5x backroom figures, I would hope that they are a damn site more efficient than that!! Anyhow if the money was used elsewhere the same jobs would be created, just spread around the country!

Putting in loops, adding extra lines alongside existing (as they've done on the Trent Valley) does increase capacity very effectively and are more cost effective, as does reopening old branches that can be used as alternative routes (who said anything about opening "minor" branches? Though having said that Scotland has done that successfully and they are well used and help out local communities well.).

Ok, a list, for starters...

4 tracking Rugby to New Street
Relaying 4 track from Moor Street out past Solihull to Dorridge
Relaying/lengthening of old loops on the section south of there down to Oxford including 50mph crossovers
Increase capacity on Chiltern Line in the same way
Rebuild of Oxford Station
Re-instate the old diversion line between Exeter and Newton Abbot
Electrifying all the major gaps they've left in the Electrification Programme they've announced, Derby to Bristol via Birmingham, Leeds to Colton Junc (a stupid omission if ever there was one), same again from Sheffield to Leeds/Doncaster (same comment applies)
And a general one: Increase train and platform lengths across the network

All of the above (and I'm sure i could think of others as could other people) would help many millions of rail travelers and represent a much better use of the money.

Many Pro HS2 people say that we have to "drag the railways of this country out of the Victorian era" and HS2 is the way to do it... I'm sorry, but it's not, as although we'll have a shiny new railway the rest of the system will still be firmly left in their so-called "Victorian" era and won't have any chance of escape because all the money's been wasted on HS2! The way to modernise the Rail system is to start with the existing system and improve it, not just build a new line that has dubious and questionable benefits...


Return to “Real World Railways”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests