rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

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kennyGWSR
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rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby kennyGWSR » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:56 pm

there are hundreds of locos in preservation, but there are really only a handful in steam/being restored/overhauled, but what about the others? will we ever see smoke rising from the chimney again? or will they just rust away and fall to pieces? what are your views?

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby TerryB » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:24 am

My guess is that most of the steamers will slowly rust away [or at the best be "cosmetically restored"].
Maybe deisels will fare better.
But as time passes,the younger generation [as a whole] will not remember steam traction,and thus,maybe more time [and effort] will be given to restoring deisels.

Given that the last [BR] steamer ran 42 years ago, the youngest people who can remember them are now maybe [?] 50-ish years old ..... Give this another 20 years,and you have an ever dwindling bunch of old timers [70 year olds] trying to remember a long lost era.
And too old to do anything about it.

It's happening now [with steamers] .... the NRM has already "stuffed & mounted" 60800 Geen Arrow ....Mallard has'nt run for 20 years ....the list could on ... :(

It took the best part of 20 years to build Tornado .
Doncaster turned new A1's out in about a week in the 1940's] ..... the same can be said for the Britanias [and the other BR Standards] ....Nowadays? ....youre looking at 10 years [at least] to build one,and lets face it,anything which has been stood rusting for 40+ years is gonna need completely rebuilding.....It does'nt leave much hope for the rusting hulks ........which at best need a whole loada parts making.

In 1988 [when I first got interested in railway preservation] I came accross the rusting hulk [remains] of GWR 57xx PT #3612 [on the SVR] ..... what was left of this loco was too far gone to restore,and by 1990 it had been removed for scrap

And then look at the comercial value of a large [4-6-2/4-6-0] loco ....it costs a whole lotta coal & expense to run on a preserved line .....a small 0-6-0 is a far more viable [profitable] loco to run.

Maybe the smaller [steam] locos which are left might fare better ... :( ....but I fear the the worst.

T.
I know it's the fastest .....but why did they have to name it after a duck?

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby kieranhardy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:01 pm

TerryB wrote:It's happening now [with steamers] .... the NRM has already "stuffed & mounted" 60800 Geen Arrow ....Mallard has'nt run for 20 years ....the list could on ... :(


In all fairness to the NRM Green Arrow has been a very active engine over the years and she is now taking a rest. There are a lot of mainline engines these days and the work is sadly not split evenly between them all so locos like 4771 if she was running would suffer. They have also not said that she will never steam again.

Sorry but it has been explained to death why Mallard hasn't steamed and most likely wont in the near future. It is well known that they won't steam her when there are other examples in service, same goes for locos like Evening Star. Yes you can focus on how long each one hasn't steamed but just look at engines like the Radial Tank at the Bluebell railway, that hasn't steamed since 1990, doesn't mean she never will though does it? And NRM engines like City of Truro have had lengthy spells on static display before being overhauled, Cheltenham is another prime example, been out of service since 1980(?), she is now currently at Eastleigh for asbestos removal in preparation for overhaul for use on the MHR.

Just look at how many locomotives the NRM does have in service (some of these may be currently undergoing repairs):

SR King Arthur No. 30777 'Sir Lamiel'
SR LN No. 850 'Lord Nelson'
LSWR T9 No. 30120
LSWR Beattie Well Tank No. 30587
LNER O4 No. 63601
GWR City No. 3717 'City of Truro'
BR 7MT No. 70013 'Oliver Cromwell'
LNWR G2 'Super D' No. 49395
Possibly an Austerity 0-6-0
Replica Rocket

Undergoing overhaul:

LNER A3 No. 4472 'Flying Scotsman'
SR Schools No. 925 'Cheltenham'
LMS 4F No. 4027

Now looking at that lineup, that shows an extensive list for a museum to have operational. Remember they are not a locomotive works and they cannot have everything in steam otherwise what is the point in the various museums? The list may not impress you if your favourite class or engine isn't running but it cannot be denied the NRM do have a varied range of locomotives currently operational. Yes i admit there are locomotives i would love to see running from the collection, but i am happy with the variety of what is currently running.

TerryB wrote:It took the best part of 20 years to build Tornado .
Doncaster turned new A1's out in about a week in the 1940's] .....


But you are comparing a locomotive works which had the money and equipment to a small group trying to build an engine, trying to gather funds which at the time hadn't been done before? I hardly think it's a fair comparison. What about the LNER G5 which has taken just a few years to build? Ok it's been slightly delayed but should be ready for next year.

With regards to locomotives in scrap yard condition which seem forgotten, work may be going on in the background creating new parts before the active restoration starts. And if it isn't their best use would be put as spares for other locomotives, which seems to be what quite a few are doing. Having said that bare in mind locomotive restorations are still occurring. The MHR very recently purchased barry wreck Standard 4MT No. 80150 to restore, Ian Riley has begun restoration of 35009 'Shaw Savill' etc. I think a lot of these barry wrecks may have a happy ending....

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby TerryB » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:23 am

Hiya Kieran ....all fair comments .... :wink:
But .... :|
kieranhardy wrote:In all fairness to the NRM Green Arrow has been a very active engine over the years and she is now taking a rest. There are a lot of mainline engines these days and the work is sadly not split evenly between them all so locos like 4771 if she was running would suffer. They have also not said that she will never steam again...


They have said [ttbomk] "not for the forsee-able future" ..... she only needs a set of cylinder blocks casting ....it cant be rocket science :roll:

kieranhardy wrote:Sorry but it has been explained to death why Mallard hasn't steamed and most likely wont in the near future. It is well known that they won't steam her when there are other examples in service
as spares for other locomotives....


Yeah ..... but Mallard is Mallard :!: 4468 Mallard :!: the one .... the fastest ....surely another A4 [any other A4 ....except for SNG] would have been better stuffed & mounted .. :?

kieranhardy wrote:......... I think a lot of these barry wrecks may have a happy ending....


I do hope youre right there .... :wink:

best regards ... :wink:
Terry.
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 am

TerryB wrote: she only needs a set of cylinder blocks casting ....it cant be rocket science :roll:

It ain't Rocket Science but it's big, heavy, accurate work - like all castings the more you make the cheaper they come. A one off is always exorbitant.
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby stuartp » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:36 am

TerryB wrote:she only needs a set of cylinder blocks casting.


Except that the monoblock cylinder casting was the reason she was preserved in the first place. That's the bit that made her worthy of being in the National Collection, not because they fancied a V2.

There was an interview in one of the mags recently with one of their curators explaining the policy. In general there are no objections to returning locos to steam but they don't have a bottomless pit of cash, it has to be viable and it has to not damage the historical significance of the loco. So Mallard won't steam because you'd have to replace so much there'd only be the nameplates left, and Evening Star is limited to where it can run because flangless wheels aren't compatible with 21st century cast crossings.

The Super D shows what can be done to a loco with limited opportunity for main line running if someone with deep pockets is prepared to pay for the restoration (Pete Waterman in this case).
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby kieranhardy » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:49 am

TerryB wrote:Yeah ..... but Mallard is Mallard :!: 4468 Mallard :!: the one .... the fastest ....surely another A4 [any other A4 ....except for SNG] would have been better stuffed & mounted .. :?


But is Mallard actually Mallard? :wink:

Take into account the speed record occurred in 1938, Mallard saw service till 1963. Chances are there isn't much on her now that was on her when she achieved the record. She had 12 different boilers & 7 tenders during service, so really the frames will be one of the few biggest parts original to the engine. When you've narrowed it down to what is actually original there isn't much that makes her stand out in comparison to her surviving sisters other than her name has a record to it.

The only appeal for me to see 4468 steam again would be to see a garter blue A4 running, but as that can be carried by any one of her other sisters, i'm not massively fussed which one does it. Having said that seeing the other liveries such as silver, apple green & NE black also appeals...

I don't see why another A4 should be stuffed and mounted just because it didn't achieve the record. They are privately owned by people who want to see them on the mainline. Mallard is not. 4 A4's on the mainline is overkill, the NRM know this. Until a day comes when the other 3 aren't running or a special anniversary is approaching, i don't see any point in steaming Mallard.

stuartp wrote:Except that the monoblock cylinder casting was the reason she was preserved in the first place.


I do have to wonder what the NRM would do if someone donated all the money needed to construct a new casting and overhaul the engine. They could store (or display) the original casting and fit it to the loco at any time they wanted?

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:12 pm

Her side-lining neatly illustrates one of the problems with the monoblock casting, there's an awful lot of it to replace when it can't be repaired. It could well have resulted in the scrapping of the loco whilst in revenue earning service.
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby kennyGWSR » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:59 pm

Bufferstop wrote:
TerryB wrote: she only needs a set of cylinder blocks casting ....it cant be rocket science :roll:

It ain't Rocket Science but it's big, heavy, accurate work - like all castings the more you make the cheaper they come. A one off is always exorbitant.

well with the repair work they did on the T9 then im sure they could try the same with 4771.
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby TerryB » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:51 pm

kennyGWSR wrote:
Bufferstop wrote:
TerryB wrote: she only needs a set of cylinder blocks casting ....it cant be rocket science :roll:

It ain't Rocket Science but it's big, heavy, accurate work - like all castings the more you make the cheaper they come. A one off is always exorbitant.

well with the repair work they did on the T9 then im sure they could try the same with 4771.


I was thinking along the lines of using the old casting as a pattern .... presumably then,it aint that simple ... :?

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby stuartp » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:04 pm

kieranhardy wrote:
stuartp wrote:Except that the monoblock cylinder casting was the reason she was preserved in the first place.


I do have to wonder what the NRM would do if someone donated all the money needed to construct a new casting and overhaul the engine. They could store (or display) the original casting and fit it to the loco at any time they wanted?


According to the interview (in which mag I can't remember, sorry), they'll look at the case on its merits. In other words the NRM trustees will decide whether replacing the casting and preserving the original off the engine compromises their conservation policy. At the end of the day they're a national museum with a duty to conserve, protect and educate, I'm impressed that they let any of their exhibits out on the main line at all given the compromises that have to be made in terms of replacement parts, alterations for modern operations (AWS/TPWS/NRN/air brakes etc). If you were to rock up at the Royal Armouries and ask if you could borrow Henry VIII's helmet for a bit of re-enactment I suspect they'd be a lot less accommodating.

Private owners don't have these constraints - if they can afford it they can do it, witness some of the ghastly liveries that have been applied over the years, turning Castles into Saints etc.

To answer the OP's question (which seems to have got a bit lost along the way, sorry), I suspect that we'll see a cycle of restore - operate - store - restore for a lot of them as we do now. Some will go for scrap either because no one knows they're at risk (e.g. owner dies, widow liquidates the estate and weighs it in for scrap before mates have chance of a whip-round) or because they're complete basket cases with no hope. The overall impression will be 'no change' because you'll never reach the stage where everything is restored - there'll alway be something needing re-restoring (which brings us neatly back to the NRM not letting everything out at once...) Even if you do restore everything someone will just buy another 37 off the scrap lines and off we go again !
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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby b308 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:52 pm

The only comment I'd make in addition to Stuart's last paragraph is that I don't think we'll see many, if any, steamers scrapped, they are too rare as it is... But I can see many of the currently "preserved" (using the word loosely!) diesels getting the chop... there are just too many of each class... I'm sure I remember a similar thread which confirmed that several are already being canabilsed.

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby kieranhardy » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm

TerryB wrote:
kennyGWSR wrote:well with the repair work they did on the T9 then im sure they could try the same with 4771.


I was thinking along the lines of using the old casting as a pattern .... presumably then,it aint that simple ... :?


Sadly what the T9 needed doing and what the V2 needs doing are two completely different things. The T9 was assessed and given the all clear for the repair work to be done, in contrast they had been closely monitoring the V2's performance in her final years so i would think they know rather well exactly what needs doing and how much it will cost, the T9 didn't need a new cylinder casting, Green Arrow does, very expensive. Any lottery winners on this forum? :)

I doubt you would be able to use the old casting as a pattern, remember its verging on life expired, the safest and best approach would be to construct a completely new one.

b308 wrote:turning Castles into Saints etc


Castles into saints!? I assume you mean Halls into Saints :wink: 2999 'Lady of Legend' is being built from 4942 'Maindy Hall'. Though that isn't bad as the 8F being butchered for the County project....

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby bike2steam » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:19 pm

kieranhardy wrote:Though that isn't bad as the 8F being butchered for the County project....


Shame - an excellent class of loco being 'butchered' to make an average one, I suppose a named mixed traffic loco is more glamorous than an unnamed freight loco.
But there again, average is the thing when you think of both a 'Clan', and a standard 3 tank.
As an after thought, it would be interesting to know how much it really cost the B & W to get the T9 back into traffic. How did the NRM make it financially viable for them, when 15 years ago it wasn't for Swanage ???????

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Re: rusting hulks around the country-any future for them?

Postby stuartp » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:43 pm

kieranhardy wrote:[
stuartp wrote:turning Castles into Saints etc


Castles into saints!? I assume you mean Halls into Saints :wink: ...


Probably. They all look the same to me ... :twisted:
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