Why does this happen ?

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50035 Ark Royal
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Why does this happen ?

Postby 50035 Ark Royal » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:40 pm

Hi i have been looking at a number of youtube videos of railtours with Heritage Traction Deltic,Western,Class 50,Class 40 etc and they all have one thing in common and that is either a Class 57 or more rarely a 47 at the rear of the train.Anybody know why this is? The railtours i used to do never had another loco at the rear of the train.I think it spoils the rest of the train as a heritage diesel stock then a 57 at the end :roll: very strange.
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Zunnan
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Re: Why does this happen

Postby Zunnan » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:43 pm

Insurance against a mechanical faliure most likely, otherwise I'd expect them to also be there to provide ETH power where required.

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NSE DAZ
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Re: Why does this happen

Postby NSE DAZ » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:30 am

Zunnan wrote:Insurance against a mechanical faliure most likely, otherwise I'd expect them to also be there to provide ETH power where required.


Like Zunnan has said i am certain that this is down to insurance reasons against a mechanical failure, so not to clog up the main lines waiting for recovery.

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D0260
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby D0260 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:35 am

Several reasons:-

Mechanical insurance - as mentioned

Many railtours need a 'reverse' these days as they are scheduled to take 'rare track and sidings'. Run-around facilities have often been removed as they are not necessary for units, voyagers, pendo's etc.

Railtour operators choice of traction. Many railtours give a selection of loco's for haulage, so they get dragged on the back as 'shunter facilities' are rarely available where they want for the railtour.

Often the railtours take long, single track sections. If the returning loco takes its own path to the destination, then there is always the cost of that 'path' , which the railtour operator has to spend. Take the loco on the tail , and its costs nothing , and is there in case of problems.

ETH supply. Often there is a large ( relatively) catering section onboard railtours, and every horsepower spent cooking meals is a horsepower less at the railhead.

Banking. often railtours take routes over steep inclines , often among 'normal' passenger services and banking would be required where the railhead is less than optimum, ie pouring rain. Often railtours are at maximum loading for some inclines, so some sort of backup is essential. Remember as well that often the railtour loco is way past its mechanical best, and the last thing you want is to catastrophically fail it- maybe for ever...

Then there is types of braking . Coaching stock currently certified is not compatible with 'older locos' used on railtours - so a 'translator' engine has to be used. An 08 can shunt 'empty' coaching stock, but put passengers onboard , and a seperate braking loco is required.

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stuartp
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby stuartp » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:08 am

As the others have said, it's largely insurance against breakdown although there are operating benefits too. The delay penalties from anything other than a very short out-of-course stop on the main line will wipe out most charter operator's profit, if not their entire turnover. Once you start holding up the likes of FGW, East Coast, XC etc, your penalty payments start to acquire zeros on the end very quickly.

Delay penalties vary from line to line so there are places where the second loco is not necessary. For example NYMR services beyond Grosmosnt don't need one because the Northern service is so sparse you'd be standing a long time before you began to affect it, and it's also relatively easy and quick to get an assisting loco from Grosmont shed if required.
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cmeonthemove
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby cmeonthemove » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:49 pm

I do find it interested though that there is rarely a rear loco on tours pulled by Western Champion. The ETH is often supplied by a converted mk1 brake with a generator.

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NNR.76079
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby NNR.76079 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:15 pm

Another reason, is like with charters going into the North Norfolk Railway is that because, there isn't the loop to miss out cromer or a loop at cromer for the loco to run-round it train, then it means the 37's in the NNR case are there to mean that, for example, 70013 'Oliver Cromwell' would be at the front of the train when it arrived at Sheringham
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m8internet
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby m8internet » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:48 pm

When the railway passed from BR to RailTrack, some charter trains broke down
RailTrack were deeply concerned as this impacted the revenue of regular passenger trains and thus impacted the Passengers Charters (compensation)

It was decided that a rescue loco should operate directly behind
However, this had its own issues, as it meant two crews, sometimes the charter train would have to wait for the rescue loco to catch up (typically after using a single line section), and general increased costs (track access charges, fuel, etc)

Under Network Rail this was simplified, such the rescue loco could be included as part of the train consist, dragged dead in tow
This sometimes has the advantage that this idling loco can provide the Electric Train Heat, meaning the train no longer needs a generator vehicle (more commonly known as a generator van)
However, some people were not happy that this made the train look unusual and "unrealistic" especially when the train was steam hauled
One final advantage is that there is no need to run round at any time, as was often originally required

EWS first used this technique with the Royal Train, as that too used to operate with a rescue loco running behind
On some occasions the rescue loco would join the main train, so that time could be saved on single lines, etc
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Phipps
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby Phipps » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:55 pm

With regards to the Oliver Cromwell visit to Sheringham in March,West Coast did a nice effort by supplying a 37 in the matching maroon livery of their Mk1 stock.If anything it enhanced the overall look of the train being headed by 70013 :wink:

wobblybob
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby wobblybob » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:17 pm

A pity 'Worst Group - the TOC with the flying F' - doesn't have 'insurance' for its rolling stock! :roll:

m8internet
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby m8internet » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:27 pm

wobblybob wrote:A pity 'Worst Group - the TOC with the flying F' - doesn't have 'insurance' for its rolling stock!

What railtours do they operate?
Given how large their fleets are, they are as liable to breakdown as any other TOC, the majority of it inherited from BR or specified by DfT/TS
In general a railtour company has much more flexibility
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b308
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby b308 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:21 am

That 37 in all over maroon is hideous! Its been sitting just outside York last week and towards the end of the week it was replaced by what looked like a 47 in the same livery... maroon may look ok on a Jub or Duchess but not on some diesel!

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NNR.76079
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby NNR.76079 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:55 am

b308 wrote:That 37 in all over maroon is hideous! Its been sitting just outside York last week and towards the end of the week it was replaced by what looked like a 47 in the same livery... maroon may look ok on a Jub or Duchess but not on some diesel!


it's better than some of the other TOC's, i like the DRS Compass onn 37's the best (But that is going off topic.)
If it steam and runs on rails i like it.
If its big, red and goes 'NEE-NAW' i like it

b308
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby b308 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:04 am

Its just too... err... drab... on a steam loco maroon seems to have some life and includes lining, black smokebox, etc, but on a 37 and a 47 there's no "relief" to the colour... Off hand I can't think of any other livery which comes close to its drabness except the GC black when dirty, but even that has an orange stripe down the side! Actually I wonder if it was deliberate, as it matches their maroon coaching stock and so doesn't "offend" as much when on the back of a special as mentioned earlier...

Everyone to their own, though! :wink:

wobblybob
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Re: Why does this happen ?

Postby wobblybob » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:29 am

m8internet wrote:
wobblybob wrote:A pity 'Worst Group - the TOC with the flying F' - doesn't have 'insurance' for its rolling stock!

What railtours do they operate?
Given how large their fleets are, they are as liable to breakdown as any other TOC, the majority of it inherited from BR or specified by DfT/TS
In general a railtour company has much more flexibility


My comment was badly worded and largely off-topic. I should have said that First Group should have a form of public liability insurance to pay out to compensation to its passengers who all too often put up with dismal 'service'.


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