Diesel Snout

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Bufferstop
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Diesel Snout

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:37 pm

Something I'd never thought about 'till my grandson asked. What if anything was in the snout of the early diesels? From LMS 10000/1 to the Deltics, and on early American diesels they all had a nose sticking out below the windscreen. On The '37s and Deltics it was quite a large structure. I can't think of anything that they carried needing to be there, so was it just for appearance? I know some had interconnecting doors there, but they didn't need that much of the overall length.
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Speed Whisker
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby Speed Whisker » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:42 pm

I know the early class 37s (37/0) had double doors at the front of the snout - as you point out - which enabled a relief driver to enter the loco from the train on long or non-stop journeys. I was tempted to say it was extra legroom for tall drivers but I don't seriously know. :)
Why are the locos I want, in the liveries I want, always either non existent, out of stock, discontinued or collectors club only/limited editions?

I used to be with it, but now what I'm with is no longer it and what's it is somehow strange and confusing.

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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby Brianetta » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:31 pm

Isn't it where the snack fridge and hot drinks dispenser are fitted?

m8internet
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby m8internet » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:33 pm

Basically there is loads of room in a loco and it is all about how it is designed and then distributed

The main factor is the bogies
Between these is the fuel tank and batteries
The next issue is the placement and cooling of the traction motors
Effectively this determines what the body looks like

On locos like a Class 47 there is a excellent airflow under the front of the loco
As a result the cab can be at the front

On locos like a Class 37 there is a poor airflow under the front of the loco
As a result there is a danger the traction motors may overheat
As a result additional ventilation is added and as a result of that the cab is moved back

On locos like a Class 55 there is a good airflow under the front of the loco
It was also a design requirement that the driver could not see the track directly ahead (so as not to distract the driver at high speed)
The compromise here is that there are two engines, a longer frame, and ironically a better airflow

You can then go to the other end of the extreme
A loco like a Class 43 HST Power Car
The air flow here is restricted
The ventilation could not be placed at the nose end and so it was placed at the other end, where there was loads of room
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b308
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby b308 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:47 pm

I hate doing this, m8, but I think you'll find that its more "historical"...

Mainline diesels were first introduced in the USA and over there the "nose" (or snout) was used in the same way as a cowcatcher on a steam loco... as protection... with "unprotected" railways, as in no fences, they were needed to protect the train crew against hitting something... like a wild animal...

Early British diesels were designed the same way, look at the early products from the British Manufacturers who exported and the LMS locos... the advantage for British locos that ran in this country was that they could put extras such as the train heating boiler in the nose out of the way...

As soon as such things were not required (such as on electric locos) the nose very quickly disappeared...

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PTmodeller
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby PTmodeller » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:54 pm

It's also good for the driver, because he has several feet of metal between him and any obstacles - 37515 and the potato lorry being a case in point.

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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby b308 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:56 pm

PTmodeller wrote:It's also good for the driver, because he has several feet of metal between him and any obstacles - 37515 and the potato lorry being a case in point.


Which is what I said... but on a fully protected railway such as the UK's its not really needed... in most cases...

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PTmodeller
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby PTmodeller » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:58 pm

So you did, apologies!

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Bufferstop
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Hmmm! My suspicion was that LMS 10000/1 took their styling from the 1940s American units, and then the space was used for whatever could go there. I can see some of the other considerations having some credence, but it seems at this distance in time that there was little opposition to the "Design Panel" which came in with designs like the Brush Type 4 and the Hymek. There's probably some mileage in crash protection as they were girder chassis designs with a relatively light superstructure, compared to the later space frame structures. If the drivers view of the track was considered it was probably dropped once it was realised that sitting at a desk the bottom of the windscreen cut off his view of the track, almost as effectively as a dirty great boiler.
Perhaps there's a first generation diesel driver out there who could tell it from his side.
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby b308 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:35 pm

You'd be surprised just how little protection the HST "snout" has... in efect its just a big fibreglass shell... damn all if it crashes...

Having said that even the boiler of a steam loco wasn't usually enough... too many things to hit if it stopped suddenly... in fact modern trains like the Pendo and (much derided on here) Voyager offer a lot more protection than the 60s diesels and HST...

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PTmodeller
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby PTmodeller » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:40 pm

Agreed, it was epic the way 390033 protected passengers at Grayrigg.

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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby b308 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:01 pm

Yep, the driver hung on grimly...

Though according to the Press he "steered" it to safety... and they wonder why we don't believe most of what they write... :roll:

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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby PTmodeller » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:20 pm

Didn't that quote come from Branson himself?

m8internet
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby m8internet » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:33 pm

b308 wrote:I hate doing this, m8, but I think you'll find that its more "historical"

The designer may have had some influence, but not on any of the diesel-electric locos I have ever looked at in great detail (which were still in use from 1980s onwards)
The majority of locos had a nose for the reasons I have outlined, details of this were in a book published with permission by Brush
It also helped distribute the weight, balancing across the bogies in many cases
Compare locos by the same manufacturer, but with different bogie arrangements (ie B0-B0 and C0-C0)
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D605Eagle
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Re: Diesel Snout

Postby D605Eagle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:51 pm

m8internet wrote:Basically there is loads of room in a loco and it is all about how it is designed and then distributed

The main factor is the bogies
Between these is the fuel tank and batteries
The next issue is the placement and cooling of the traction motors
Effectively this determines what the body looks like

On locos like a Class 47 there is a excellent airflow under the front of the loco
As a result the cab can be at the front

On locos like a Class 37 there is a poor airflow under the front of the loco
As a result there is a danger the traction motors may overheat
As a result additional ventilation is added and as a result of that the cab is moved back

On locos like a Class 55 there is a good airflow under the front of the loco
It was also a design requirement that the driver could not see the track directly ahead (so as not to distract the driver at high speed)
The compromise here is that there are two engines, a longer frame, and ironically a better airflow

You can then go to the other end of the extreme
A loco like a Class 43 HST Power Car
The air flow here is restricted
The ventilation could not be placed at the nose end and so it was placed at the other end, where there was loads of room

Did you actually read this somewhere or did you just make it up? Do you really think the traction motors rely on air flowing under the locos for cooling? Have you never heard of traction motor blowers?


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