Tornado to the rescue

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sheep21
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby sheep21 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:42 am

Old coaches may be more comfortable with more spacious seating, then again I would rather have aircon, reduced noise and not having my carriage collapse like tissue paper around me in a crash.
Old & simple isn't always good, I believe that Mark I's also have a tendency of splitting away from their frames and riding up and crinkling, not something a coach on a voyager for instance or the like would do methinks.

No, in general, modern haulage and stock wins hands down. Not to mention the fact that I seriously doubt steam traction could hope to follow the time tables and train frequencies we are used to today (which still aren't enough in some areas mind!).

*steps away from powder keg*

b308
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby b308 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:59 am

In some respects you are right, S21, as examples a class 90 plus 5 has substituted for a Voyager on the Brum Manchester route and could not keep to the booked timings, HSTs were the same except for the 5+2 versions which could, a steamer would have very little chance on an express, but could probably be ok on locals in substitution for a 150, 153 or 156.

The main issue is not really the speed/acceleration, but the cost of running them and availability, diesels and electrics are quickly available and require less depot time, even modern steam locos like Tornado still require an awful lot more upkeep both in manpower and time.

Its still nice to be hauled by one, and in Germany there are several NG lines which are run on a commercial basis and have steam as their prime mover (Harz, Rugen, and Saxon lines) so steam haulage can still be used on a daily basis.

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PeterH
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby PeterH » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:24 am

What really needs to happen is a combination of the old comfortable coaches of yesterday, with the safety and mod. cons. of this age. So the comfy spacious setting of a MK1, with air con and the such with high performance chassis/bogies you find on modern stock.

I don't like the design of squeezing as many people as they can inside a coach. We are not sardines!
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b308
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby b308 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:18 am

Agreed, thats why I like the later Mk2s! We'll have to see what the replacement to the HSTs come out like... if they ever do!

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trainsandco
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby trainsandco » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:02 pm

sheep21 wrote:Old coaches may be more comfortable with more spacious seating, then again I would rather have aircon, reduced noise and not having my carriage collapse like tissue paper around me in a crash.
Old & simple isn't always good, I believe that Mark I's also have a tendency of splitting away from their frames and riding up and crinkling, not something a coach on a voyager for instance or the like would do methinks.

No, in general, modern haulage and stock wins hands down. Not to mention the fact that I seriously doubt steam traction could hope to follow the time tables and train frequencies we are used to today (which still aren't enough in some areas mind!).

*steps away from powder keg*


I'm sorry, I disagree alot with that. They do have aircon, and they're quite quiet (but if you went on a steam charter, you'd want to be able to hear the engine, and with thhings like voyagers your ears go pop :x ) and I've seen a crash of a train with 3 coachs at 100mph the engine was an instant write off and probably the coachs as well but the coachs mainframe and the inside was mostly undamaged with some fixing falling off. I have seen many charters and only one of them was late and that was due to the police stopping a train that it was following. and most of the times I go to a preserved railway if anything fails its the diesels, getting the brakes jammed on :roll:

*takes rose tinted specs off*

Ben
Henley on Thames in the 30's

Southerner in a weird place called "Yorkshire"...

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b308
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby b308 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:56 pm

trainsandco wrote:[I'm sorry, I disagree alot with that. They do have aircon, and they're quite quiet (but if you went on a steam charter, you'd want to be able to hear the engine, and with thhings like voyagers your ears go pop :x ) and I've seen a crash of a train with 3 coachs at 100mph the engine was an instant write off and probably the coachs as well but the coachs mainframe and the inside was mostly undamaged with some fixing falling off. I have seen many charters and only one of them was late and that was due to the police stopping a train that it was following. and most of the times I go to a preserved railway if anything fails its the diesels, getting the brakes jammed on :roll:

*takes rose tinted specs off*

Ben


Ok, Ben lets take each of your points in turn...

You are quite right that if on a steam special you want to hear the engine, but some of us were talking real railways, not preserved or specials...

Your ears going "pop" could be caused by two things, going up or down a hill quickly or going through a tunnel, Voyagers aren't unique in that respect, you get it on all modern, fast stock.

The crash test you refer to I suspect was the Peak into a Nuclear Flask test, the whole train was a right-off and it bore no resemblance to real life crashes, if you had been on board one of the coaches you would now be dead, no questions. A good example of how strong modern stock is would be the recent Pendo crash at Greyrigg, if that had happened with M1, 2 or 3 stock the injury/death toll would have been higher, the problem with modern stock is now keeping people from flying around inside rather than injuries caused by collapse of the structure or windows we saw in the past.

As one who works trains for a living, I can assure you that despite all the mollycodling preserved stock gets it still causes service trains delays, yes our trains do break down as well, but considering the abuse they get from hard use and the passenegrs they are pretty good these days.

Finally brakes jamming on could be down to several things, most common being a broken pump, steam engines had them and they broke too, read up some tales of footplate crew back in steam days, delays and failures due to defective brakes was quite common...

I'd put your rose tinted specs back on if I were you, things obviously look better to you with them on! :wink:

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PTmodeller
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby PTmodeller » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:20 pm

trainsandco wrote:I'm sorry, I disagree alot with that. They do have aircon, and they're quite quiet (but if you went on a steam charter, you'd want to be able to hear the engine, and with thhings like voyagers your ears go pop :x ) and I've seen a crash of a train with 3 coachs at 100mph the engine was an instant write off and probably the coachs as well but the coachs mainframe and the inside was mostly undamaged with some fixing falling off.


Mk1s don't have AirCon. Would you fancy being on this train? That's what happens when Mk1s are in a crash. They collapse and crumple.

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SirMeliot
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby SirMeliot » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:50 pm

Old style coaching stock is built as a fairly weak body shell on top of a very strong chassis. In a heavy crash the chassis of one coach will ride up over its neighbour and rip through the body like tissue paper. This is fine if you're in the coach on top, not so good if you're in the bottom coach.
Modern stuff has monocoque construction where the body is load bearing and is much stronger. Just like a car they are designed to crumple at the ends and absord energy while keeping the bit you're sitting in intact.

sheep21
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby sheep21 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:16 pm

trainsandco wrote:
I'm sorry, I disagree alot with that. They do have aircon, and they're quite quiet (but if you went on a steam charter, you'd want to be able to hear the engine, and with thhings like voyagers your ears go pop :x ) and I've seen a crash of a train with 3 coachs at 100mph the engine was an instant write off and probably the coachs as well but the coachs mainframe and the inside was mostly undamaged with some fixing falling off. I have seen many charters and only one of them was late and that was due to the police stopping a train that it was following. and most of the times I go to a preserved railway if anything fails its the diesels, getting the brakes jammed on :roll:

*takes rose tinted specs off*

Ben


Cant comment on aircon, I dont know the status of every single mark I in the country.
I have seen that video also, its setup, to prove the strength of a nuclear cargo flask, not coaches, look at the picture PTmodeller linked to, real life is somewhat different.

Also, charter services are something special, they just have to keep to time for that one journey, not day in day out for years on end on a conjested network with high frequency times. I assure the modern railway could not handle the transportation of such vast numbers at such speed with so close train frequencies if it were using steam traction.

In the end, ask you this, if you were in a rail crash which would you have more faith in protecting you, a mark I or a mark III\Voyager carriage? I think the answer to that question speaks for itself.

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Zunnan
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby Zunnan » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:53 pm

Personally speaking, I prefer not to think about the worst happening considering how rare such occurrences are. I much prefer to consider the comfort and travelling 'environment' in typical everyday use. Which would you prefer, relatively comfortable facing seats with a table and aircon and the only noise to be heard was wheel on metal rail and when the brakes are applied? (which is exactly what you got with loco hauled Mk2d/e/f coaches) Or the non stop din of the engines in a Voyager and other assorted DMUs giving you a pounding headache and badly desinged seats, apparently only meant to fit midgets and children, that you seem to get in everything from a Mk3 to a current multiple unit. When Virgin withdrew loco hauled services, I was attending college in Leeds doing my BTEC in building services and travelled home every weekend. The Voyagers were (and still are) so bad that I started driving the 130 or so miles each way every week instead, even though it cost me about £30 a week more in petrol than the price of a return ticket. The last time I caught a train anywhere was on a class 350 'Desiro' (or as I prefer to call them, 'less than Desirable') going from New Street to Liverpool. I got as far as Crewe before I got off the bloody thing and rang my friend in Liverpool for a lift for the rest of the journey. As I said before, modern trains are less comfortable than budget airline seats.

I don't have rose tinted specs, I'm not old enough to remember steam haulage and don't want to revert back to that. I am however old enough to remember when train journeys actually used to be comfortable...the old class 304 'Dinosaurs' were my favourites, you really could fall asleep on those.

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PTmodeller
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby PTmodeller » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Part of the issue is capacity. Mk2s with masses of space are all well and good, but when they end up full and standing, that's no good, is it?

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Zunnan
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby Zunnan » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:08 pm

Neither is a 3 car class 323 in the rush hour, nor a pair of them if you are lucky. But thats exactly how they are operated. The other half still perseveres with the train as she works in the city centre, I frequently get texts from her moaning that she (and many other passengers) can't even get on to the train.

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PTmodeller
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby PTmodeller » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:06 pm

A nine coach Pendolino will have more seats than 8 mk1s plus loco. That was my point.

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Zunnan
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby Zunnan » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:46 pm

The 4 car 188 seat Voyagers replaced the 7 coach Mk2 cross country set; 5 64 seat seconds, 1 32 seat brake plus first class accomodation of about 30 seats if I'm not mistaken, making over 380 seats in total? The 439 seat Pendolino replaced 10 coach Mk2 and Mk3 sets, which presumably had a similar if not higher seating capacity. That is an apect of the direction I am looking in.

As a regular rail passenger on those services at the time of the changeover, I can honestly say from my fare paying perspective that quality of service took a nosedive and has not recovered. When the Voyagers came in, it was a miracle to get a seat at any point of the journey to or from Leeds, assuming you could even get through the doorway if they only provided one unit. There was more than one instance of me having to get a local service to Sheffield, then to Derby and from there to New Street, and that was with pre booked tickets on occasion. With the current 'advances' I have refused to travel by rail for quite some time and I'm sure I'm not alone in taking that decision.

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trainsandco
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Re: Tornado to the rescue

Postby trainsandco » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:01 pm

PTmodeller wrote:
trainsandco wrote:I'm sorry, I disagree alot with that. They do have aircon, and they're quite quiet (but if you went on a steam charter, you'd want to be able to hear the engine, and with thhings like voyagers your ears go pop :x ) and I've seen a crash of a train with 3 coachs at 100mph the engine was an instant write off and probably the coachs as well but the coachs mainframe and the inside was mostly undamaged with some fixing falling off.


Mk1s don't have AirCon. Would you fancy being on this train? That's what happens when Mk1s are in a crash. They collapse and crumple.


ok I got mixed up with heaters and aircon :? but that train was crashed into up the rear, surely something similar would be the outcome if yo replaced those with a pendo and a voyager?

b308 wrote:You are quite right that if on a steam special you want to hear the engine, but some of us were talking real railways, not preserved or specials...

Your ears going "pop" could be caused by two things, going up or down a hill quickly or going through a tunnel, Voyagers aren't unique in that respect, you get it on all modern, fast stock.

The crash test you refer to I suspect was the Peak into a Nuclear Flask test, the whole train was a right-off and it bore no resemblance to real life crashes, if you had been on board one of the coaches you would now be dead, no questions. A good example of how strong modern stock is would be the recent Pendo crash at Greyrigg, if that had happened with M1, 2 or 3 stock the injury/death toll would have been higher, the problem with modern stock is now keeping people from flying around inside rather than injuries caused by collapse of the structure or windows we saw in the past.

As one who works trains for a living, I can assure you that despite all the mollycodling preserved stock gets it still causes service trains delays, yes our trains do break down as well, but considering the abuse they get from hard use and the passenegrs they are pretty good these days.

Finally brakes jamming on could be down to several things, most common being a broken pump, steam engines had them and they broke too, read up some tales of footplate crew back in steam days, delays and failures due to defective brakes was quite common...


whats wrong with hearing the steady woosh and the clickety clack of hearing the world go by as you shoot through the country?

The pop was on level ground, no tunnel, no noticable incline.

yeah but still 100mph-0mph in a matter of seconds is disasterous but in the same circumstances but with a pendo, you'd probably be dead as well, that derailment at greyrigg was just a derailment not a crash, it was still recongnisable as a pendolino not a pile of twisted metal.

how come hardly any steam engines have there brakes jammed on then now-a-days?

yeah, I think I should either keep those rose tinted specs or just chuck them......its just digging me a bigger and bigger hole :? :P

B
Henley on Thames in the 30's

Southerner in a weird place called "Yorkshire"...

81D & 55A


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