MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

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MrT
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MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby MrT » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:03 pm

Hello all,

Having looked at some Farish MK1 Blue/Grey Pullman coaches, I'm sorely tempted to buy some. Does anyone have any info on when/where they operated in real life?

All I ever seem to find are pictures of Umber/Cream coaches.

Thanks :)

beamends
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby beamends » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:28 pm

MrT wrote:Hello all,

Having looked at some Farish MK1 Blue/Grey Pullman coaches, I'm sorely tempted to buy some. Does anyone have any info on when/where they operated in real life?

All I ever seem to find are pictures of Umber/Cream coaches.

Thanks :)


Try loking for :

Manchester Pullman
Midland Pullman
Tees-Tyne Pullman
Yorkshire Pullman

these were blue/grey Mk 1's for a while, or the Tees-Tyne was at least. Could be an interesting modelling idea, I don't recall any models.

Cheers
Richard
I have become.......comfortably numb

b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:56 pm

Not sounding thick here, but I didn't realise any of the BR Mk1 coaches were ever used as Pullmans - weren't all the Pullman coaches specially built?

A Mk1 Pullman would be one of the 19th century Midland-based coaches?!

b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:04 pm

Ah got it! They are the 1925/8 built coaches by BRCW.

http://www.martinimber.co.uk/pullman.htm

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Zunnan
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby Zunnan » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:14 pm

Umm...not quite :lol:

BR Mk1 Pullmans were built by Metro Cammell in 1960-61 and looked like this ~
Image

They were Eastern Region based, and were certainly used on the Yorkshire Pullman as far as Bradford Exchange, the Hull Pullman and the Tyne Tees Pullman. The Yorkshire and Hull services were the last ECML Pullman trains and ran until 1978, so would be the ones which the Blue/Grey vehicles would have ended their BR lives working. The Midland used the Blue Pullman units until they were withdrawn and replaced with Mk2 vehicles, I can't find anything that shows the Mk1s ever working on the MR.

b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:49 am

I know they were the same length, but I've always understood the Pullmans to be bespoke built for the purpose, looking at photos of them alongside Mk1s the body, whilst having the same tumblehome is very very different - I know the Mk2 Pullmans were based on the Mk2 coaches, but I think that other than perhaps the chassis and length I don't think that the Mk1 Pullmans owed a great deal to the BR coaches, certainly from the solebar upwards!?

http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p47431546.html

beamends
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby beamends » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:01 am

Ok, got it wrong about no models!

http://www.ehattons.com/stockdetail.aspx?SID=24244

From this and the photo above, you can definately see the Mk. 1 inness, like the Mk. 1 suburbans that don't immediately look like Mk 1's

Cheers
Richard
I have become.......comfortably numb

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MrT
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby MrT » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:07 am

Interesting stuff, thanks guys. 1978 is a bit early for my layout(s) but I think I can get away with it.

b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:54 pm

beamends wrote:From this and the photo above, you can definately see the Mk. 1 inness, like the Mk. 1 suburbans that don't immediately look like Mk 1's


I would liken the Pullmans to Mk1s as you would a 60s Lotus to a 60s Anglia, they may have a few things in common (engine in the car, perhaps the chassis frame in the coach), but they are like chalk and cheese and built by different manufacturers!

beamends
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby beamends » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:08 pm

b308 wrote:
beamends wrote:From this and the photo above, you can definately see the Mk. 1 inness, like the Mk. 1 suburbans that don't immediately look like Mk 1's


I would liken the Pullmans to Mk1s as you would a 60s Lotus to a 60s Anglia, they may have a few things in common (engine in the car, perhaps the chassis frame in the coach), but they are like chalk and cheese and built by different manufacturers!


Does that make the Mk. 1 Suburban stock not Mk. 1's either? I think your analogy is incorrect, as the Mk. 1's used a generic "chassis", generic ends, generic sides (if some what modified, both in the Pullman, Suburban, full brake etc etc) with only the interior radically different (though no more so than between a buffet car and an open saloon), running on a choice of bogies. A much more accurate anaology would be between the minibus and tipper versions of the Transit - same vehicle adapted for different purpose. The builders work form a provided drawing, so who actually makes a particular variant does not matter - if someone else produced them the same product would result.

Cheers
Richard
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b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:24 pm

Another "we shall have to agree to differ", I think, I cannot see any real comparison between a Pullman coach and a Mk1 at all..... appart from they were the same length.... BR Mk1s were some of the worst coaches that we produced, Pullmans were some of the best....

beamends
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby beamends » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:42 pm

b308 wrote:Another "we shall have to agree to differ", I think, I cannot see any real comparison between a Pullman coach and a Mk1 at all..... appart from they were the same length.... BR Mk1s were some of the worst coaches that we produced, Pullmans were some of the best....


Probably best to disagree - not least as I lament the demise of the Mk. 1! I hate open coaches for all the obvious reasons. It has to be said though that there are a great many references to Mk. 1 Pullmans, and indeed models of them, so they did exist - if not for all that long. A Pullman is just a coach with a particularly nice interior at the end of the day, be it a Mk. 1, Mk II or custom made!

Cheers
Richard
I have become.......comfortably numb

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Zunnan
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby Zunnan » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:54 pm

The BR built Pullmans were based on a standard Mark 1 coach chassis and bodyshell. The only difference between them is in the end doors (Pullmans traditionally opened inwards, hence the flat profile of the BR builds ends), the depth of the side windows and the interior layout. Pullman was bought out by the British Transport Commission in 1954, and when the new vehicles were built, the BTC were under ever increasing pressure from the Union to nationalise. Pullman became part of BR in 1962 after BR had designed much of the stock since the BTC takeover.

Image
This shot shows a Mk1 RU between two Pullman Mk1s. You can clearly see the identical roof profile and tumblehomes. The Metro Cammell Pullmans of 1960-61 are certainly a BR Mark 1 variant.

b308
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby b308 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:31 am

Well I stand corrected, I really did think that the BR Pullmans were considerably different to the Mk1s and had convinced myself in the process! You learn something every day!!

Richard, I have started a thread on the Mk1s so you can convince me that they were not a very versatile, but ultimately poor deveolpment of British coach building, completely eclipsed by the Mk2 and 3s!

diningcarman
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Re: MK1 Blue/Grey Pullmans

Postby diningcarman » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:44 pm

As a pullman steward I worked exclusively on these sets on the Hull Pullman 1971-4 where these sets worked until 1978 with their demise. I only ever remember them in the reverse blue/grey livery and am dissapointed to see them in Pullman livery. I too never knew they were classed as a Mk1 as there were totally different in every way concievable, evident totally as we ran a Mk1 RU in the formation. The body was wider using commonwealth bogies and totally different window fittings etc. Maybe the chassis was the same but that is where the similarity ends. They were a joy to work, we had two Pullman Kitchen firsts sandwiching a Pullman open first, trailing a Mk1 RU then a Mk1 RMB followed by a rake of 4 second class (not standard class)Mk2d opens then a Mk2d open brake. The Pullman interiors were a delightfull teak veneer with lime green and black seating..very Art deco.


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