Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

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Byegad
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Byegad » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:40 am

rb277170 wrote:Hattons are not stupid . While they may have been caught out by Bachman’s response when they initially decided to go for the 66 and supply models wholesale they certainly have had time to consider it , since Nov 2-18 in fact . They must have come to the conclusion that they can make more money on their wholesale operation and by commissioning models than by selling Bachmann . And when you look at the glacier like speed of Bachmann deliveries you can understand why.

If we look at the business ethos of both companies , one is supplying models at a discount to the consumer and introducing new choices . The other has increased prices dramatically in the last 5 years , at least 35% and in some cases much more than that , is restricting discounts to a max of 15% for initial sales period . I know which one I want to succeed.



I suspect that you are correct in assuming Hattons know what they're doing .

After waiting for years for the Farish J72, only to see it cancelled, Bachmann don't inspire me to pre-order anything they announce. Both Dapol and Bachmann/Farish have a track record for announcing product that never arrives, or as in the case of the Dapol class 142, takes far too many years to reach to reach the market. Eight full years if IIRC!

I have the Hattons Garratt on pre-order, due next year, so hopefully Hattons will buck the trend and bring it to market on time. If they can, then that truly could see a new and reliable manufacturer has arrived.

b308
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby b308 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:42 pm

All the other major manufacturers have got the same track record some even worse.

Let's put this to bed. Bachmann have terms and conditions which Hattons chose deliberately to break. "Called their bluff"! Bachmann did what they said they would do. That's it really. Hattons flexed their muscles and found out they weren't as indispensable as they thought they were. They"ve made their bed and now must lie in it, for better or worse.

Bachmann won't see any drop in sales as other shops will compensate. Hattons will also keep going though it would be nice to think that they will not duplicate a model in future so you can all have more variety!

Surely that's it?! ;)

Mike Parkes
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Mike Parkes » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:45 pm

SRman wrote:Hatton's used to be the cheapest supplier, followed closely by Rails. Both retailers have been limited by the major manufacturers dictating that they cannot sell below a certain price for 8 weeks ( I think that was the figure ).

Kernow, Gaugemaster and Derails are / were all potentially cheaper than Hattons in that situation as they have post free offers; Kernow on orders over £200 now (use to be £140), Gaugemaster on orders over £15 and Derails on many Bachmann pre-orders

rb277170
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby rb277170 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:20 pm

b308 wrote:So far sales of 009 have proved that there is a profitable market for such models. Bachmann have proved flexible enough to realise that and are making money from it. Successfully developing a new market is the very essence of a successful business. Ok you might not want it but they and Peco have proved that many do. Not something to belittle because they have concentrated their efforts in a section of modelling that doesn't match yours.

People talk as if Bachmann have stagnated which is far from the truth. I see it's now becoming a bashing Bachmann thread which is all rather pointless.


It’s not Bachmann bashing , they make some very fine models . But the gestation times for some of their models is a Joke , and don’t deny that they have increased their prices to eye watering levels . It’s their business model and they are quite entitled to do that .But I’m quite entitled to look elsewhere. I think Peco were on 009 long before Bachmann were . Interestingly the latest Hattons YouTube video concentrates on 009 with discussions on forthcoming Peco /Kato Little England’s and Double Fairlies and Heljans 2-4-2 Baldwin. This of course on top of Pecos existing rolling stock, trackwork etc . It shows Bachmann operating in a crowded Market .

b308
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby b308 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:37 am

I wouldn't know about their pricing for OO SG but a look at other shop's listings would indicate that their pricing is no different to the others such as Hornby. Gestation times and cancellations have always been part and parcel of the model railway manufacturer's annoying habits, Bachmann aren't the first and nor will be they be the last to do that. However our experience of Bachmann's pricing and timesacles for the new models in 009 have been very good, they've kept us well informed, their timescales have been adhered to and the model, when it appeared, was excellent both in running qualities and looks. Unlike a certain Heljan model which suffered from delay after delay and finally when it did arrive was a disaster in the running department...

I just see many people using this as an excuse to bash Bachmann (at least that's the way a lot of the posts read) when in fact it was Hatton's antics that have caused it. I also tend to think it's been blown out of all proportion!

As regards 009, Hattons will have no choice but to concentrate on the Kato Ffestiniog stuff as they are now unable to sell the forthcoming Bachmann Quarry Hunslets which are due to appear before the Kato stuff (we shall see, I recon we'll see them come out about the same time!). Currently there are two 009 RTR locos (five if you include the Bachmann US TTE locos) with another four to come... Hardly a crowded market as there are a lot more prototypes out there to make! Peco have been "into" 009 with their track for decades but only recently into RTR, it's a totally new market which they are pushing with the aid of certain manufacturers, giving them help and assistance to help develop their ranges. Hopefully because of that we won't see the duplication we see in OO SG...

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Bigmet » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:34 am

b308 wrote:...I just see many people using this as an excuse to bash Bachmann (at least that's the way a lot of the posts read) when in fact it was Hatton's antics that have caused it...

These are not antics. Hattons have chosen the path of entering manufacturing because their business needed product volume to sell. First Hornby, then Bachmann, have experienced problems which led to shortfalls in delivery: what's the retailer to do? They are not alone either, Kernow are fully embarked on this path too; add to these the small band of retailers which have taken up commissioning, some in partnership with 'new entry' manufacturers, which have been popping up these last few years.

In short there is a shift going on within this business. There has been an expansion of access to Chinese factories offering design to manufacture packages. Hattons and Kernow are just two from several more 'new manufacturer' start ups. The only way for an existing player to maintain their position against a raft of new competitors is to deliver product. Disagreement with
a major retailer is a distraction: fight fire with fire as Hornby did; you want a piece of us? Here's our competing product, on sale long before yours sees the light. Did the job on both Hattons and Rails to good effect.

I see this move by Bachmann as regrettable. What was once the pathfinder business in RTR OO with a well executed plan to focus on the adult modeller - by which action they provoked significant change in the dominant competitor, and essentially created the current RTR OO adult model market - now playing a weak defence. I wish them well with OO9, but suspect this choice primarily reflects what design to manufacturing capacity they had available.

Why is the majority of the action in OO and O? Are those bringing new introductions forward in these scales mad and misreading the market? Or could it be that these are the products with the best profit margins? The real issue is that the
competitors are not just going to fold their tents and go away. They are going to steadily 'eat the lunch' of any business not matching them with new introductions which sell strongly.

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6C
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby 6C » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:27 pm

b308 wrote:I just see many people using this as an excuse to bash Bachmann (at least that's the way a lot of the posts read) when in fact it was Hatton's antics that have caused it.


Not in a modelling sense - just a business-sense and they probably deserve that on the basis of this move :roll:

Hattons in my view are just expanding the 'product portfolio' to maintain their success - perfectly reasonable..

If we can't criticise manufacturers we become like another forum...and nobody wants that... :lol:
Pete

Fetch me a bottle of your finest Chateau Bichon Frise '65 !!

Mike Parkes
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Mike Parkes » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:41 pm

People will simply use another supplier - other suppliers turnover will go up so if anything Bachmann not supplying Hattons will actually financially benefit other suppliers.

b308
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby b308 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:48 pm

Bigmet they are antics as they could have chosen firstly to order something which didn't clash and secondly use an existing manufacturers like others have done.

They didn't, they deliberately chose to duplicate an existing model and break their terms and conditions. It was a deliberate act. Bachmann had no choice in the matter but to stop supplying them as they were challenging them.

Make no mistake this was deliberate by Hattons.

How it will now pan out is anyone's guess. Filling the odd hole is one thing becoming a full grown manufacturer is quite another. Having said that the current way of msking models is very different as well.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Bigmet » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:23 pm

b308 wrote:... Bachmann had no choice in the matter but to stop supplying them as they were challenging them.

Make no mistake this was deliberate by Hattons...

I would never for a moment dispute this was deliberate by Hattons.

Bachmann had every choice in their response. Check their T&C document, the key word is 'discretion'. They didn't have to sever their trading with Hattons, they chose to.

This is business, and both will stand or fall by their decisions.

What I see is increasing disruption in this market. The once relatively stable situation of a few RTR manufacturers, and a spread of retailers all stocking pretty much the same selection of those RTR manufacturer's products destabilised, and soon to be a thing of the past. Typically those that adapt do better in such times, than those that act to maintain 'status quo ante'.

Mike Parkes
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Mike Parkes » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:07 pm

Remember Bachmann Europe are owned by Kader - it ultimately may have come from higher up re not supplying Hattons. The 66 seems to be the announcement that really titled the matter for the decision maker but making the rest of their own models available to other retailers immediately changed them into a clear competitor, not just an odd model but a clearly emerging range similar to how Kader started out in the UK supplying the Mainline range for Palitoy. Would you walk into the Hornby visitor centre or Dapol and expect them to be selling Bachmann items ?

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby Bigmet » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:26 am

Mike Parkes wrote:Remember Bachmann Europe are owned by Kader - it ultimately may have come from higher up re not supplying Hattons. The 66 seems to be the announcement that really tilted the matter for the decision maker but making the rest of their own models available to other retailers immediately changed them into a clear competitor, not just an odd model but a clearly emerging range similar to how Kader started out in the UK supplying the Mainline range for Palitoy. Would you walk into the Hornby visitor centre or Dapol and expect them to be selling Bachmann items ?

It certainly feels likely that 'corporate' direction may have had an effect, but that's all hidden from our view.

Now this business of other manufacturers/distributors: Peco merrily stock and sell Bachmann, and much other RTR; and directly compete with both Bachmann and Hornby in set track, and doubtless other items (I see Peco are about to release a metal N gauge wheels range). I am told much the same applies to Gaugemaster, but don't know their business at all. Both Bachmann and Hornby sell directly when they choose. So it is alright for manufacturers to move into retail, but not retailers to start trying their hand at manufacturing and/or distribution? Clearly not a credible argument.

As before, these trends that destabilise a once fairly uniform scene have been developing some time, and they are not going to go away, but rather accelerate. Resistance is futile...

muggins
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby muggins » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:20 pm

Bigmet wrote: ... these trends that destabilise a once fairly uniform scene have been developing some time, and they are not going to go away, but rather accelerate. Resistance is futile...


Well I for one wouldn't want to go back to the "Good Old Days" when the trade was apparently run by gentlemen in tweed suits who graciously saw fit to supply us, via our Friendly Local Dealer, with whatever they thought we should have. As long as we don't get any repeats of The DJM Saga, the way things seem to be going nowadays is fine by me. If nothing else, surely it's leading to more folk realising that there's a whole world beyond Hattons?

BTW, why the hallowed assumption that the local dealer was friendly? When I was a kid, ours was a right miserable beggar who was widely suspected of being a bit of a nonce :)

rb277170
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby rb277170 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Spot on Muggins.

What’s also forgotten (I’ve just watched the video with Tony Wright) is that Hattons are bringing ready to run O gauge A3s, A4’s and Gresley stock to the market soon. They presumably thought the need to have a wholesale business for this and hopefully more models in the future was worth more than Bachmann business . It’s not just the 66 but their whole new business model that’s caused this . While folk will just place orders elsewhere I think ultimately it’s Bachmann ( or more likely Kader)that’s cut off their nose to spite their face. They’ve taken on a 66 , what about a 37?

patrick116
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Re: Bachmann no longer list Hattons as a stockist

Postby patrick116 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:33 pm

I think this decision makes little sense for Bachmann or Hattons though Hattons have already shown they can produce new models without Bachmann.

As for Bachmann their dealer supply agreement, which appears to tell dealers the minimum price they must sell for, seems to be a clear breach of The Resale Price Act 1976.

Bachmann's poor record of delivery plus significant price rises had already stopped me buying their products. I have Bachmann models purchased c. 2006 which are still on sale but at, in many cases, at nearly double the price I originally paid!


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