Bachmann's rechassied V2

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Bigmet
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Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:19 pm

The new chassis for the V2 is OK - at least it runs quietly and smoothly which is a pleasant change from the usual bag of spanners performance of the old split chassis version - but it isn't fast enough to represent the prototype's dashing performance. Mine is so sluggish I have already had the motor out to see if the chassis was binding, but it proved to be very free rolling. Just doesn't run fast, way outpaced by the same maker's B1. There will have to be a conversation with Bachmann some time next week on this subject.

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D605Eagle
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby D605Eagle » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:57 pm

Is it possiable to do a motor swap with the B1 if they are the same, or is that a bit extreme? You might just be unlucky and have a duff motor. IIRC the Std5s are rather slow too.....

kristopher1805
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby kristopher1805 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:06 am

I have just had two delivered, the green one is very nice and performs very well, just like the B1, smooth, quick (if you want it) very nice loco, the second black one (Durham School) started with involuntary stopping for no apparent reasons and then after about 30 metres stopped, emitted smoke from various places looked worse than a worn out Woodford V2 and the smell very smokey - so I acted to remove from track and return to box for a return to supplier. Shame it looked well enough.

So Bigmet it looks as if your motor is poor as even the black one when running was OK.

On this one the only other loco which has done this before is a Bachmann 7F 53810 and it was a year old with a lot of running behind it.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:05 am

I have had the motor out, and it has plenty of torque, hard to stop when running on 12V, and going by sound was spinning when free at about 12,000 rpm. That's enough to make a model go at a good speed. Going to count the reduction ratio later today. My suspicion is that it has too large a reduction ratio, just like their BR standard 5MT model.

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Peterm
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Peterm » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:07 am

Yep, sounds as though the gearings way too low.
Pete.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:40 am

It certainly is. Sent a query off to the Bach men, asking how they plan to sort it.

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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:40 am

Short answer, Bachmann service think its OK. Well, I have waved the flag in every reliable forum saying 'too slow on DCC' lets see if anyone else feels the same.

In testing I have checked out the motor with swaps both ways between B1 and V2. It is absolutely down to the gearing, 40:1 on the V2, 24:1 on the B1 which performs as it should with the V2 motor in it. Nothing to do with the motors, simply a poor choice of gearing on the V2 for some inexplicable reason.

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Peterm
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Peterm » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:09 am

Clerical error. :roll:
Pete.

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markS&D
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby markS&D » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:51 pm

Bigmet wrote:Short answer, Bachmann service think its OK. Well, I have waved the flag in every reliable forum saying 'too slow on DCC' lets see if anyone else feels the same.

In testing I have checked out the motor with swaps both ways between B1 and V2. It is absolutely down to the gearing, 40:1 on the V2, 24:1 on the B1 which performs as it should with the V2 motor in it. Nothing to do with the motors, simply a poor choice of gearing on the V2 for some inexplicable reason.


This nicely ties in with the problem I am still Having with the 'S&D 7F 2-8-0', ironically in this example, the gear ratio seems far too high for a heavy freight loco. It really is not a good performer, It always seems to need a 'burst' of electrical current to get it moving or a slight nudge.

It is geared far too high for a freight locomotive. You cannot reverse slowly up to a rake of wagons, it is ridiculas, the motor has got very little 'torque' at low speed.

The motor seems very week. It is knowhere near as good as the 5 pole motor that Hornby uses.

lol... "Perhaps your V2 has the gearset that should have been in my 7F".

I have said this before, 'Bachmann' sometimes have the edge in terms of detail, but these days, I think Hornby has the edge in terms of performance and reliability.

I have messed about with all sorts of settings for the DCC chip, I have tested it under DC, it is still a poor runner, the loco just refuses to be a good runner. the motor (in my opinion) is inadequate for the size and weight of the model.

I have buit DJH loco kits before, and used a Mashima 1626 motor, and 40:1 gear ratio, these models weighed far more than this 7F does, and ran very smoothly at very low speed. I put it down to the poor quality motor that Bachmann has chosen to use.

In my opinion Hornbys 5 pole can motor is far superior to Bachmanns 3 pole open frame motor (I own models from both companies).

I would say that in more recent times, Hornby have really pushed the boat out in terms of detail and performance, Bachmann whilst still very good at producing an excellent, well detailed model, have let things down by using a crappy motor in their Steam loco models, that does not respond well to DCC control.
My layout, only look if you are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=48422

Latest Video Link:

https://youtu.be/g5ytOK5FCZc

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D605Eagle
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby D605Eagle » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Bigmet, do you think it would be possiable to fit a Chinese Hornby 5 pole can motor like the ones used in the 2-6-4 tanks? If so I've one spare you can borrow to test to see if you can get it to run propper like! Save you buying one just to perform a test.....

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:04 am

Bachmann's steam loco motors don't give me any trouble, I use Lenz decoders and they make them work. Try a Lenz Standard+ if you haven't already. But I would prefer a five pole (ideally skew wound) motor, which is what Bachmann started out with in their Blue Riband range, using Buhler and Mashima products, before switching to their own three pole design. It is a good example of a three pole type, but a five pole is just that bit sweeter running.

Gear ratios though, why the 40:1 ratio in the V2, when the 24:1 in the B1 works so much better in providing a good speed range? Now here's a thing I have done on a V2 chassis, exchanged the position of the first two gears. The chassis I have done this on now has about a 12:1 reduction, and ample speed. I have CV5 set at 130 to limit it to a scale 105mph maximum. It is a bit lumpy on speed step 1, not surprisingly, but otherwise runs and pulls perfectly well. (Jim, Thanks for the offer of the Hornby 'black can' motor to test, it won't fit as the chassis stands: I may well try a split chassis standard can as these are quite slow revving and have a lot of torque. I have stacks of these from worn out split chassis, the motor appears unburstable!)

Never tinkered with the S&DJR 2-8-0, and not likely to, as no-one I know has that interest. Since I was able to reverse the gears so easily on the V2, I wonder if this is possible in other models, and whether it might have happened in yours at assembly, as all the Bach eight coupleds I have are 40:1 geared (WD, ROD, G2A) and crawl about very controllably. It would be decidedly odd if they abandoned this gear ratio, and the one Bachmann S&DJR 2-8-0 model I have seen at a show running on a basic DC controller was creeping about very smoothly. Carefully inspect yours against the assembly diagram, that may show you whether the gearset is wrong way around.

Swapping the gears is simple enough, you just push the shafts out: what does need to be watched is the meshing with both the worm and the axle gear. On the V2 to get the gear that now engages the worm to centre under the worm I had to add a washer on its shaft (that also ensures the line up on the axle gear) and a very small shim under the motor ensures the worm does not bind down on the new pinion. Obviously if your 2-8-0 has been misassembled it shouldn't need extra parts when right way around. Easy enough experiment to try for yourself, and fully reversible. Do report back if you give it a go...

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markS&D
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby markS&D » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:46 pm

The gearing appears to be as per the 'exploded parts diagram'. In this instance, I am at a loss to explain what is wrong. I have had the motor out of the chassis, and tested the chassis for free running, it runs freely without the motor.

It is not an electrical fault with the wiring or pickups.

It seems to me that the motor does not develop enough 'torque' for the weight of the model. Even under DC control, it needs a 'spike in voltage' from the controller to get it moving. Once its moving, its fine until it gets on a gradient or a curve (or trying to start a train moving), then it loses power rapidly, even 'light engine'. This is annoying, because It will suddenly 'shoot off' with a rake of wagons or coaches, then I have to ease back on the throttle, but have to watch it closely to make sure it does not come to a halt again, this is extremely tiresome, especially when you have a few loco's running at the same time!

As I have said before, the 5 pole motor that Hornby fits, is far superior to the 'shitty' 3 pole motor that bachmann seem to have settled on. This explains to me why the 'Standard 5MT' is geared really low, it is fitted with the same motor as the 7F, but because of the gear ratio, it runs well at low speed.
My layout, only look if you are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=48422

Latest Video Link:

https://youtu.be/g5ytOK5FCZc

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D605Eagle
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby D605Eagle » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:34 am

Sounds like the Std4 tank motor. Thats totally rubbish with no torque.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby Bigmet » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:19 am

I must be lucky, 70 odd wiper chassis Bachmann steamers to date, and not one with a poor motor. I have had to add weight to several types of chassis (A1, A2, B1, K3, O4, V2, WD, Ivatt 4MT, BS 5MT) to get them to pull a full size train, but the motors are fine for the job; just the inappropriate 40:1 gearing choice leading to inadequate top speed on the V2 and 5MT.

Design and construction of these motors appears to be highly standardised. My first thought on the V2 was 'motor with poor torque' and back to Bachmann it would have gone had that proved the case. But in fact the motors have plenty of torque, they will do the job with a full size train at roughly 12:1 in the V2 chassis!

bocaj
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Re: Bachmann's rechassied V2

Postby bocaj » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:56 am

I got green arrow as a Birthday Present today, I was impressed with it. The Moter is a bit noisy but I think that is just because its a first time running, and its not a major problem and nothing that bothers me.

Jacob


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