009 and slow running

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b308
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby b308 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:02 am

muggins wrote:I still need convincing that I can get good enough slow running to make me happy with 009, hence the idea of getting a few bits to play with before committing myself ...


You can do that with modern stock, same as you can in N (both 9mm gauge) but as I said before it's about preparation, good boards, tracklaying and cleanliness is key.

Why not visit one of the narrow gauge shows or an exhibition that has a decent 009 layout? "Greenend" is a small end to end 009 layout that has near perfect running.

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Emettman
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Emettman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:18 am

For dockside, street track and some industrial settings, Tomix do superb inset track (mainly meant for tram and light railway street use. (But no points as yet.))

6x2 plus fiddle yard would be quite do-able in OO, even to an oval, by pushing the track radii down to 10" (commercial curves for this are still just available)
This again limits stock and needs thought on couplings. Hornby style 0-4-0's are viable, but re-motoring them for slower speeds is an upgrade to be considered.

Chris
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b308
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby b308 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:27 am

Emettman wrote:6x2 plus fiddle yard would be quite do-able in OO, even to an oval, by pushing the track radii down to 10" (commercial curves for this are still just available)


Commercial tram track would do it, Chris, and goes lower than 10" I think.

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Emettman
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Emettman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:56 am

b308 wrote:Commercial tram track would do it, Chris, and goes lower than 10" I think.

You could easily be more up-to-date than me, here.
I've never done tramways, 9mm or 16.5 mm gauge, to date.

The limit tends to be hit for trains not on the curve itself as with the couplings, if they have to shunt as well.
Trams, especially four-wheelers, can have some spectacular "end throw" as they encounter a steep curve.
(As can any 0-4-0 loco much longer than its wheelbase. The Darjeeling B class may be the most extreme example of this.)

On which I've just spotted a small OO9 Darjeeling layout from Carl Arendt's micro layout pages.
(a massive source for compact and unusual ideas)
http://www.carendt.com/micro-layout-design-gallery/good-ideas/

Image
Chris
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b308
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby b308 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:14 am

As he said industrial and probably wanted inset track I thought tram, not cheap though min radii is 8"...

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/e ... way-Tracks

I'm not aware of any current OO setrack down to 10", even Playcraft was only 12"?

You could do it with flexitrack though 9mm gauge would be far easier, they do 9" radius 009 setrack and the locos would be smaller and go round the curves much better with less overhang.

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Emettman
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Emettman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:05 pm

b308 wrote:I'm not aware of any current OO setrack down to 10", even Playcraft was only 12"?


Yes, and the old Hornby Dublo, and AcHo can provide 15" radius points with metal frogs...

The 10" curves are a particular favourite of mine, as I tend to build small display railways

(I think) they are no longer manufactured. but the Fleischmann 6020 curves are still on the Anyrail database and can be acquired without too much difficulty.
(Holland was the best source, last time I looked)

Here they allow a terminus to turntable fiddle yard in 3ft by 2ft.

Image


Here too the points are more curved and smaller than the "standard" Hornby or Peco setrack ones (top)
Image

Again, there *if* space-saving is a must.

Sorry, Muggins, we've rather taken over the thread while considering possibilities.

On the Tomix track 9mm track two of these will give you a 7" radius circle of tram track for fraction under £18. (2 radii tighter than that are available)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tomix-1797-Wide-Tram-Super-Mini-Curved-Track-C177-WT-N-scale-/351689507280?hash=item51e25401d0:m:mxfGZheO6EYpqNSJyj_c_YQ
I've used PlazaJapan several times and found them very reliable.

Chris
Last edited by Emettman on Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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muggins
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby muggins » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:59 pm

Emettman wrote:Sorry, Muggins, we've rather taken over the thread while considering possibilities.


No apology necessary, mister. Please carry on - I'm learning loads of good stuff here!

b308
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby b308 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:43 am

I'll second Plaza Japan, I've used them several times for my Rokuhan Z stuff.

Minitrains are now doing points and track matching the old Egger track, though nickel silver rail, radius is around 5"...

Can I add in a note of caution with all these tight radii knocking around... As we've said it does severely limit the types of locos and stock you can use, and even then they do look faintly daft on them! You are always best to use the widest radius you can get away with, with a 2ft board in 009 11" is easily made from flexitrack and the standby is 9" Peco 009 Setrack which all Minitrains and most other stock will negotiate just find and not look that daft.

muggins
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby muggins » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:05 am

Well ... after all this, it now looks like I'll be going the 00 route after all. Several reasons, with my somewhat reduced dexterity nowadays being one of them and my eyesight being another.

But at least I haven't wasted you guys' time - I've learned a lot of useful stuff which is also relevant to 00, and if I hadn't started asking about 009, I could very easily have gone down the wrong (for me) route.

So thank you once again gentlemen. Off now to adjust brain and start thinking 00, so brace yourselves for more questions from me about that!

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Mountain
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Mountain » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:52 pm

To put the cat in the middle of pidgeons, have you thought of 0-16.5/0e/0n30? It could provide the answer to narrow gauge modelling in a small space without the difficulties of the lighterweight mechanisms that 009 tends to have. I used to model in H0e (009 European equivalent) and though I found them to be real gems of locos, it didnt take a lot of dirt on the rails to stop them. I'm not saying you dont need to clean rails in any scale that relies on electrical contact, but in general, the larger the scale the more contact and weight one has to make the contact.
For me I find that in narrow gauge 0-16.5 tends to have the best compromise. I find it the cheapest gauge and scale combination I've found so far as I can build wagons for around £2 each. The main limit being the cost of wheels.
I too am also a 00 gauge modeller. I find that both work well together. Let me explain. Anything scrap in 00 gauge tends to offer ideal material for recycling into the new use in 0-16.5. Wheels, bogies etc.

b308
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby b308 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:27 pm

Whoa, Mountain!! Too much of a sweeping statement there!!

Let's get one thing straight, no electrically powered model railway will run properly if the track and baseboard are poor and the mechanisms are not serviced properly, that applies just as much to O-16.5 as it does to OO9. The advantage that narrow gauge has over the "doner" scale (i.e. N gauge vs OO9 and OO scale vs O-16.5) is that as the loco bodies are bigger in narrow gauge you can fit more weight which usually gives better running...

However a properly constructed OO9 layout will run just as well as any O-16.5 layout, I've seen just as much poor running in the larger scale as I have in the smaller one. In all cases it's been the construction of the layout and use of poor mechanisms that lead to that poor running, NOT the choice of scale...

If you use cheapo mechanisms and secondhand track in any scale and you are asking for trouble and far too many NG layouts do just that...

Switching to a larger scale does not guarantee better running.

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Mountain
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Mountain » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:03 am

What I'm saying is, that the narrower the rail contact with the wheels and the less weight being applied to those wheels, the more attention needed to ensure cleanliness is required to keep the trains operating effectively. I've seen an 0 gauge loco operate over dirty rails when I was amazed the thing was still running! If it were one of my 00 gauge locos it would not have moved. It was an old Lima loco.
I noticed my N gauge loco on its little TV table layout I made needed more attention to cleaning, as did my two Roco locos along with my Lilliput loco in H0e. They certainly were not cheap to buy. The one Roco loco was a similar price to a sound equipped class 37 from Bachmann as I had purchased one of each back when both first came out.
I can't say that build quality has a direct relationship with price as it is certainly possible that H0e locos may be expensive because there is less mass building of them. However, the intricate working plastic walscharts valvegear of the one Roco German 0-6-0 tender loco was amazing to watch.
I do agree that quality does make a difference for these reasons. There are usually better pickups and materials used with better quality locos along with heavier weights then the cheaper locos have.

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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby muggins » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:51 am

Mountain wrote:To put the cat in the middle of pidgeons, have you thought of 0-16.5/0e/0n30?


I did, but as I said in my last post (which was nearly a year ago now!), in the end I decided to stick with 00.

Having said that, though, in due course I was persuaded by The Lady Wife to add a 009 feeder line and transfer siding. Motive power for that is a Minitrains Gmeinder diesel running on the "worn sleepers" Peco track, and we are very happy with its performance - particularly the slow running :)

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Mountain
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Re: 009 and slow running

Postby Mountain » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:07 pm

Would love to see a PIC of it. I found it a good plan to have something running automatically in the background is the ideal thing.


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