odd TTS behavior.
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- Posts: 267
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:47 am
odd TTS behavior.
Installed a Hornby "Hall" TTS decoder in the Hornby "Large Prairie." Works fine on regular track and double slips. However, when crossing a Peco Insulfrog turnout (either direction) the momentary power interruption stalls the loco; it sits for about five seconds and restarts from startup mode. Very strange. Clearly not supposed to happen. Is there something about TTS I don't know like, for example, don't use insulfrog turnouts? Any ideas? Thanks.
George
North Carolina
Mod: Topic moved to the more correct DCC section where it should receive more views and answeres than the News section.[/quote]
George
North Carolina
Mod: Topic moved to the more correct DCC section where it should receive more views and answeres than the News section.[/quote]
Re: odd TTS behavior.
I haven’t seen exactly that behaviour but having recently stripped out all my Insulfrog t/outs and replaced them with Electrofrog, the difference in running is like night and day. I could imagine that the loco is losing power for just long enough on the dead frog to think that it is restarting. You are just so dependent on the switch rails making proper contact.
So you are right, don’t use Insulfrog. But you need to take a deep breath……..
So you are right, don’t use Insulfrog. But you need to take a deep breath……..
- Roger (RJ)
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Re: odd TTS behavior.
Could be that not all pickups are working properly.
- Bufferstop
- Posts: 13796
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Re: odd TTS behavior.
I'd suggest the same as Roger. There shouldn't be a momentary loss of all power but the maximum current drawn my be more limited for a moment. There are certain wheelbases that get into trouble with insulfrogs and settrack, but you'd have problems without TTS so you would already know about it. More likely is one or more pickups either losing contact with the wheel backs, or the wiring hanging on by a thread.
There's two things to do, check that the pickups are always in contact with the wheels. When you can rule out the loco, examine the points, clean the tips of the blades and the surface they make contact with. Is the point flat, can the loco rock whilst going through the point and lift one wheel off the track. Your description of what the loco does would be the symptom of a wheel falling into the crossing gap, causing the diagonally opposite wheel to lift off the track, causing a stall, which allows the wheel to fall back on the rail and reconnecting the power. Before ripping out points and replacing them with electrofrog, put a plastic straight edge across them, the most common fault is the frog being higher than the ends of the rails, you may be able to pin down the frog more tightly. Laying a strip of 15 - 20 thou plastic in the bottom of the flange way may stop particular locos from diving into the dip.
There's two things to do, check that the pickups are always in contact with the wheels. When you can rule out the loco, examine the points, clean the tips of the blades and the surface they make contact with. Is the point flat, can the loco rock whilst going through the point and lift one wheel off the track. Your description of what the loco does would be the symptom of a wheel falling into the crossing gap, causing the diagonally opposite wheel to lift off the track, causing a stall, which allows the wheel to fall back on the rail and reconnecting the power. Before ripping out points and replacing them with electrofrog, put a plastic straight edge across them, the most common fault is the frog being higher than the ends of the rails, you may be able to pin down the frog more tightly. Laying a strip of 15 - 20 thou plastic in the bottom of the flange way may stop particular locos from diving into the dip.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
Re: odd TTS behavior.
Many of Peco's points exhibit a slight upward bow, peaking at the crossing. This offers another way for a loco to stall, the wheel on the dead crossing which is the 'top of the hill' lifting the rest of the coupled wheels off the rails - and there's total loss of track supply.Bufferstop wrote:... Is the point flat? ...
On DC, the loco would coast on through; but most DCC decoders simply shut down on loss of supply, and resume operation from stationary when supply is restored, after a 'time out' interval. Usually the loco will have moved enough under inertia while the decoder has shut down to once more be 'on power', and thus moves away after a time interval, as the OP describes.
Ensuring the point is truly flat is the best fix with what is in place. Really DCC is best with live crossing points, and I do wonder if this is the reason for Peco's - somewhat belated - move to make ''unifrog' standard throughout the range.
- Bufferstop
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Re: odd TTS behavior.
That they ever produced Insulfrog was the root cause of much confusion over the years. The need for electrofrog points was said to be the only disagreement that CJ Freezer as editor of RM and Sydney Pritchard ever had that wasn't resolved within 24hrs. but CJF never made anything of it when Peco introduced Electrofrog, and he went off to edit an independent journal. Had that debacle never taken place unifrog would just be seen as a step to simplify the wiring up of points.I do wonder if this is the reason for Peco's - somewhat belated - move to make ''unifrog' standard throughout the range.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
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Re: odd TTS behavior.
Good advice and thoughtful discussion. One question: so in future buy new unifrog rather than old-stock electrofrog?
Thanks
George
Thanks
George
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Re: odd TTS behavior.
It’s not the TTS at all, it’ll do it with any sound decoder without a stay alive in the circuit, it’s just loosing electrical contact for a fraction of a second, long enough to reset the decoder from stand still in practical terms.
Best regards David
Please let me know if anything in my post offends you......I may wish to offend again.
Please let me know if anything in my post offends you......I may wish to offend again.
Re: odd TTS behavior.
I have had this on DCC in the past though not with sound decoders. The solution was to turn off the inertia and if that does not work, to also turn off the back emf. One sets rhe values to their lowest to turn them off which is usually 0 or in some cases 1.
This should prevent the stall effect where the loco stalls and then starts again with its inertia cycle.
Ok, extra pickups will also be the answer but this may be difficult on some model designs.
I have not had the issue with DCC sound as I only had one sound loco which was a Bachmann class 37 and that had pickups everywhere!
This should prevent the stall effect where the loco stalls and then starts again with its inertia cycle.
Ok, extra pickups will also be the answer but this may be difficult on some model designs.
I have not had the issue with DCC sound as I only had one sound loco which was a Bachmann class 37 and that had pickups everywhere!
Modelling On A Budget ---》 https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/F ... 22&t=52212
- Bufferstop
- Posts: 13796
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
- Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line
Re: odd TTS behavior.
@ George Stein - I doubt there will be much chance of getting old stock rather than Unifrog points. The way that Pecos deliveries have gone over the last few months everyone will have run out before the new points arrive. I expect the item numbers will be different, so lookup the stock code for Unifrog and order on that rather than description.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
Re: odd TTS behavior.
Sorry to sound thick but what are unifrog points?
I’ve never heard of these.
I’ve never heard of these.
Mad dog gromit strikes again!!
Re: odd TTS behavior.
That sounds like a story that should be told….!Bufferstop wrote:That they ever produced Insulfrog was the root cause of much confusion over the years. The need for electrofrog points was said to be the only disagreement that CJ Freezer as editor of RM and Sydney Pritchard ever had that wasn't resolved within 24hrs. but CJF never made anything of it when Peco introduced Electrofrog, and he went off to edit an independent journal. Had that debacle never taken place unifrog would just be seen as a step to simplify the wiring up of points.I do wonder if this is the reason for Peco's - somewhat belated - move to make ''unifrog' standard throughout the range.
- Bufferstop
- Posts: 13796
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
- Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line
Re: odd TTS behavior.
You want it told. Here goes
Peco's introduction of Streamline flexible track (code 100) was a step change in availability of strong truly flexible track. It wasn't perfect, the H0 sleeper spacing wasn't that great, but compared to what we had it would do. Producing the points to go with it needed some compromises, RTR wheel profiles were coarser than today. The all plastic crossing with deep flangeways and overcentre spring gave a point which could switch current to the chosen route, could be used manually switched and was easy to install and use. As modellers experienced better running, more operated at realistic speeds and that's when the disadvantage of the long bit of plastic in the middle showed up. CJ Freezer, the editor of Railway Modeller, suggested a livefrog but Sydney Pritchard, his boss and founder of Peco firmly believed there was no demand for it. CJF devised a way of converting the points, but being a loyal employee would not divulge it in the RM. That didn't stop it getting out via clubs and exhibitions. I tried it, it needed a steady hand and a hot soldering iron. If you were careful it worked.
Then Graham Farish dropped their bombshell, their own flexible track with UK spaced sleepers AND live frogs. Peco had good sales of streamline in the rest of the world so they weren't about to change the sleeper spacing, but they did accept that there was a demand for what would become Electrofrog. So they produced their points in two versions, Insulfrog ready to use, Electrofrog, still ready to use just a very small bit of wiring required. Graham Farish saw their future as being in N gauge and their track system died.
There the matter would have stayed, but noises were coming out of the USA about a system that allowed multiple trains to be driven by multiple drivers and we became aware of DCC. At a theoretical level, you could attach a DCC controller, turn on all section switches and away you go. Turns out it wasn't that simple. We'd got use to locos pulling about half an amp, controllers wouldn't deliver much more than one amp. DCC could deliver three amps or more,, probably around 5A. It was possible with points set in an unfortunate combination all 5A could end up flowing through the tip of one point blade, so we had to wire in plenty of feeds to avoid it happening. There was another problem, we knew that occasionally the back of a wheel would touch the tip of a point blade, the DCC would trip out then reset, something similar happened to any one with insulfrogs when a wide wheel tread bridged the narrow gap between the V rails. It was a minor annoyance until the arrival of sound, then when the system reset, all your diesels went through a startup routine every time it happened so we devised a set of mods to carry out on the points to make them DCC friendly.
Peco wanted to be able to say their points didn't need drastic modifications so they designed Unifrog. The tip of the frog is metal but not connected to either V rail, there's a pair of links which can easily be cut and some bits of wire attached to the rails if you want to supply the appropriate polarity from a microswitch. It would have been a big job to convert the whole range in one go, and then we had lockdown and Peco turned their hands to supplying PPE. So now they are doing one design at a time, and there's a lot of designs in the multiple ranges, so don't hold your breath waiting for a particular point, you'll have to use what's available for now.
Peco's introduction of Streamline flexible track (code 100) was a step change in availability of strong truly flexible track. It wasn't perfect, the H0 sleeper spacing wasn't that great, but compared to what we had it would do. Producing the points to go with it needed some compromises, RTR wheel profiles were coarser than today. The all plastic crossing with deep flangeways and overcentre spring gave a point which could switch current to the chosen route, could be used manually switched and was easy to install and use. As modellers experienced better running, more operated at realistic speeds and that's when the disadvantage of the long bit of plastic in the middle showed up. CJ Freezer, the editor of Railway Modeller, suggested a livefrog but Sydney Pritchard, his boss and founder of Peco firmly believed there was no demand for it. CJF devised a way of converting the points, but being a loyal employee would not divulge it in the RM. That didn't stop it getting out via clubs and exhibitions. I tried it, it needed a steady hand and a hot soldering iron. If you were careful it worked.
Then Graham Farish dropped their bombshell, their own flexible track with UK spaced sleepers AND live frogs. Peco had good sales of streamline in the rest of the world so they weren't about to change the sleeper spacing, but they did accept that there was a demand for what would become Electrofrog. So they produced their points in two versions, Insulfrog ready to use, Electrofrog, still ready to use just a very small bit of wiring required. Graham Farish saw their future as being in N gauge and their track system died.
There the matter would have stayed, but noises were coming out of the USA about a system that allowed multiple trains to be driven by multiple drivers and we became aware of DCC. At a theoretical level, you could attach a DCC controller, turn on all section switches and away you go. Turns out it wasn't that simple. We'd got use to locos pulling about half an amp, controllers wouldn't deliver much more than one amp. DCC could deliver three amps or more,, probably around 5A. It was possible with points set in an unfortunate combination all 5A could end up flowing through the tip of one point blade, so we had to wire in plenty of feeds to avoid it happening. There was another problem, we knew that occasionally the back of a wheel would touch the tip of a point blade, the DCC would trip out then reset, something similar happened to any one with insulfrogs when a wide wheel tread bridged the narrow gap between the V rails. It was a minor annoyance until the arrival of sound, then when the system reset, all your diesels went through a startup routine every time it happened so we devised a set of mods to carry out on the points to make them DCC friendly.
Peco wanted to be able to say their points didn't need drastic modifications so they designed Unifrog. The tip of the frog is metal but not connected to either V rail, there's a pair of links which can easily be cut and some bits of wire attached to the rails if you want to supply the appropriate polarity from a microswitch. It would have been a big job to convert the whole range in one go, and then we had lockdown and Peco turned their hands to supplying PPE. So now they are doing one design at a time, and there's a lot of designs in the multiple ranges, so don't hold your breath waiting for a particular point, you'll have to use what's available for now.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
Re: odd TTS behavior.
Thank you. Fascinating to hear how all this stuff developed. I asked because I was familiar with the name of Cyril (?) Freezer from a couple of track plan books that I inherited nearly 30 years ago from my late father. Production was a little shaky - you could see where bits of Letraset had come loose! - but the principles were there and they were very useful books.
Like me, my father took up railway modelling after retirement and was encouraged by his local model shop to use the then new Zero One system. Fitting I think was quite complicated (at least for him) and he had the ‘chips’ fitted by the model shop. Small tank engines had to have a box wagon permanently coupled to accommodate them. From my limited contact with it - I was working overseas at the time - it seemed to work quite well and the drastic simplification of wiring was a Godsend to Dad whose electrical knowledge was seriously limited. I had to explain to him that the electrical circuit was from one rail, through the motor to the other rail, NOT round the circle of track. If I had been resident in UK at the time, I might have kept some of it, but as it was I had to sell it via the local paper (no eBay then either!) to get it out of my mother’s way.
I did manage a small N gauge layout whilst abroad, based on one of CJF’s track plans and using some locally acquired MiniTrix stuff. But it never got any scenery simply through difficulty of acquiring materials - those were the days of mail order, hoping retailers still had the stock they claimed to have had in a months old Railway Modeller. And I had to confront one unscrupulous dealer who claimed that my £100-odd pound order ‘must have got lost in the post’. Happy days!
Like me, my father took up railway modelling after retirement and was encouraged by his local model shop to use the then new Zero One system. Fitting I think was quite complicated (at least for him) and he had the ‘chips’ fitted by the model shop. Small tank engines had to have a box wagon permanently coupled to accommodate them. From my limited contact with it - I was working overseas at the time - it seemed to work quite well and the drastic simplification of wiring was a Godsend to Dad whose electrical knowledge was seriously limited. I had to explain to him that the electrical circuit was from one rail, through the motor to the other rail, NOT round the circle of track. If I had been resident in UK at the time, I might have kept some of it, but as it was I had to sell it via the local paper (no eBay then either!) to get it out of my mother’s way.
I did manage a small N gauge layout whilst abroad, based on one of CJF’s track plans and using some locally acquired MiniTrix stuff. But it never got any scenery simply through difficulty of acquiring materials - those were the days of mail order, hoping retailers still had the stock they claimed to have had in a months old Railway Modeller. And I had to confront one unscrupulous dealer who claimed that my £100-odd pound order ‘must have got lost in the post’. Happy days!
- Alexander Court
- Posts: 1232
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:42 pm
- Location: Waterville, Ireland
Re: odd TTS behavior.
My TTS fitted (hardwired) Hornby Duck behaves the same, but perhaps more because of its traction tyres on the centre axle.
Alex
Alex
"I love the way you call it Art, When you never even use your Heart, and I just wanna tear you Apart"