US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

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RBTKraisee
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US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

This may spark a fun debate :)

I used to run a really large OO gauge layout back when the Earth was still cooling (1980's) but it was entirely pre-DCC era, so now that I'm finally getting back into the hobby in a serious way, I need some insightful advice as to selecting the best controller for a rapidly growing layout.

First, the layout: I'm modelling an N gauge UK layout based on the East Coast Main Line, filled with a variety of Dapol, Farish and Bachmann loco's and stock including steam, electric and diesel's from various era's. Just for a bit of fun I'd also like to be able to run some US (Berkshire 2-8-2's, AmTrak & Santa Fe), Japanese (various era Shinkansen) and European (TGV/Eurostar) stock as well. Generally speaking, my rakes are full length, up to a dozen units.

A slight wrinkle on the supply side of things is that I'm an ex-pat living in Florida, so local suppliers for UK/Euro equipment are virtually non-existant. This means that if I go with something like Roco, I'll probably end up ordering everything online 'unseen', which I'm a touch wary of doing, unless I can get good recommendations from respectable people - like you folk here, on this forum!

I need a controller that can control at least 20 loco's, that can handle up to 100 automated points (I think I'm going to use G9 servo's through Octopus III's). A bonus would be the ability to also control a bunch of loco's, rolling stock and building lights together with rail signals (both lights and semaphore).

In time, the layout will grow well beyond these initial limits, but this should hit all the buttons (pun was too good to pass up) for my first year or two - at which point I would expect to upgrade.

I haven't had much chance to play with anything except a Digitrax Zephyr and a Digitrax handheld that I can't recall the model name. I quite liked the Zephyr, though I didn't feel it was very modern. I did not like the handheld unit at all, so unless there's an extenuating reason I'd prefer to nix most of those early in the decision process.

I saw EverardJunction's video on "Are Budget DCC Decoders Worth It?" and his results quickly convinced me that I want to be using Lenz decoders - but I'm not quite sure which controller systems they are compatible with and which they are not - that would be very helpful information for me.

I haven't been able to actually try any other controllers yet, so all I'm currently going by are online reviews. The Lofty N-Scaler did a useful video "DCC System Comparisions. Digitrax, NCE, Uhlenbrock, Roco Z21, ESU and Digikeijs" and from that I have to say that I particularly liked the look of the user interface for the Roco Z21. Interestingly he said obtaining parts in the US wasn't much of an issue for him, so that's encouraging news.

I do like the ability to control the layout from another device - especially touch control for changing the points - though I'd really like to be able to control it from a PC, not just phone's and pad's.

Budget is fairly open. I don't mind paying a bit more if its the right solution.

My research to this point has helped to narrow my requirements down a bit here, but at this point I'd like to turn it over to y'all ;) I'd really like to hear what you have to say - thoughts, recommendations and advice - everything you might share would be most welcome!

Ross.
Last edited by RBTKraisee on Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
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Bufferstop
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Bufferstop »

The DCC standards we on this side of the pond use are the ones we've imported from the NMRA so go with what is most available and suits your requirements. As you are working in N gauge a feature you may wish to ensure your choice has is the ability to adjust the maxim line voltage to avoid over stressing N Gauge motors.
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RBTKraisee
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

Thanks, that's a good point to learn. I sure don't want to blow any loco's up!

Doing a bit more homework tonight, I notice that a lot of people seem to prefer Zimo decoders to the Lenz ones. Anyone want to chime in on that point?

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
Bigmet
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Bigmet »

Over fifteen years a Lenz system user and very pleased with it. Has the feature of track voltage adjustment which really matters for N gauge. If you like the handset interface, it's a very reliable system and fully supported so a 'safe purchase'. (Really important that you like the control interface, it should fall under your hand so well that you can use it for operation without looking at it; in my opinion. So it is worth trying out if possible.)

I don't believe Lenz are the best for N decoders, suspect you will be better served by Zimo. I write that having used Lenz decoders almost exclusively on OO mechanisms the same 15 years, and they have proved uniformly excellent. But! Recently Zimo have introduced a competitively priced offering to the Lenz Standard decoder which offers way more motor control adjustments, and while I have no experience of their product in N gauge locos, I would expect it to be as good as it is in OO thanks to this very large range of adjustment. (You will have to read your way through the large manual...)
RBTKraisee
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

Thanks, and yes, the control interface is likely to be the deciding factor for me.

I haven't actually found any handheld unit that I like yet. To me, the text-based user interfaces seem dreadfully outdated, very 20th century. Few of the manufacturers seem to have woken up to the fact that modern touch-screen tech is both readily accessible and fairly inexpensive these days. We're actually a whole 1/5th of the way into the 21st century already...

Because I'm really looking for a user interface that will allow me also use a laptop / phone / pad, the Roco Z21 (black) is currently leading my score sheet. The ESU system is 50% more expensive and frankly doesn't look as good. And none of the others seem to have a slick touch screen interface without buying considerable additional software/hardware.


Somewhat related, this evening I took a closer look at the Arduino-based DCC++ system. Definitely fiddly, but I've got a couple of Arduino's floating around here, and the programming doesn't scare me much, so I'm going to spend a whopping $12 :o getting a MotorShield board for it and I'll give it a whack. I don't think it will become my main control system, but it'll be a bit of fun to tinker around with, and I think it might actually be an inexpensive solution for operating some of the fun track-side extras that I'm thinking about.

Please, everyone, keep your comments coming because I'm not ready to make a final decision on any of this yet. I want to hear a lot more opinions first.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
Bigmet
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Bigmet »

RBTKraisee wrote:Thanks, and yes, the control interface is likely to be the deciding factor for me.

I haven't actually found any handheld unit that I like yet. To me, the text-based user interfaces seem dreadfully outdated, very 20th century. Few of the manufacturers seem to have woken up to the fact that modern touch-screen tech is both readily accessible and fairly inexpensive these days. We're actually a whole 1/5th of the way into the 21st century already...
Ross,

You may want to spread the net wider than DCC then! I like DCC because it is somewhat nostalgic, has some affinity to the Allen-Bradley control systems we were putting on manufacturing plant early in my career half a century ago...

DCC was developed by Bernd Lenz from the microprocessor based building services management system his business produced as the 'day job'; to serve his model railway interest, and he significantly made DCC an open standard. The NMRA picked it as the 'likely winner' from a small selection of like systems, and the rest is history - and in Moore's law terms, ancient history. Present situation, no clear successor 'killer app' system has yet emerged. Leaving the control interface aspect out of it for a moment, it is fairly obvious that all the tech for rechargeable power on board, radio command, is now available: but the commercial product to fully exploit this and elbow DCC aside ain't there yet. Worth your time to take a look I would suggest; there is a good r/c offering from a US manufacturer which seems to be gaining traction - name won't come to me - but a little google-fu will find it. (My wife is working from home and using all the bandwidth or I would look myself!)

Ah, memory has kicked in. Ring Engineering and Tam Valley are two US based oufits worth a look. The first has distribution via Walthers, which suggested to me that it was going places.
Suzie
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Suzie »

Zimo decoders are on the whole better than Lenz for a few reasons:-

- Cheaper for the most part.
- Offer sound versions.
- Generally work out of the box without any need to tweek BEMF tuning or motor matching.

The only real downside of Zimo is that there is no jst-9 socket version, but unless you have older US locos (or are upgrading from Lenz or TCS) you should not need that option. Lenz also offer a really good stay-alive feature that is probably a bit better than the Zimo version, but that is offset by the Zimo feature that prevents the loco from stopping on a dead spot!
Suzie
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Suzie »

...Following on from the decoder choice, if you want to get the most from European decoders (like reading decoder CVs on the main, and getting status from the loco) you will probably want to use Railcom feedback from the decoders. There are a couple of issues with Railcom not being very welcome in the US:-

- Many US decoders from the likes of NCE etc. don't work on Railcom enabled command stations and boosters. These decoders on the whole are pretty rubbish so you should avoid them anyway, but you can get caught out with accessory decoders that don't like it as well. Railcom is a NMRA standard so it is disappointing that US manufacturers are slow to acknowledge its existence and support working with it!

- Most US command stations don't support Railcom.

US technology is getting to be as outdated as it looks. For the most part it is solid and reliable, but might not do everything you would expect of a modern European system from the likes of Digikeijs, ESU, Roco, and Zimo etc.

You want to use a PC so it is well worth looking at JMRI software which is very good and free, and it is worth looking at the compatibility of the command stations to work with JMRI. Having an Ethernet or Wi-Fi interface to the command station makes connectivity a lot easier rather than serial or USB found on older systems. Controlling signals prototypically on all but the smallest layout requires the command station to support extended accessory packets.
RBTKraisee
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

Bigmet wrote:Ah, memory has kicked in. Ring Engineering and Tam Valley are two US based oufits worth a look. The first has distribution via Walthers, which suggested to me that it was going places.
Tam Valley eh? Interesting. They produce the Octopus III that I'm already looking closely at to control really cheap 9G servo's to operate all my turnouts. I'll go take a look at their radio control offerings - and Ring Eng. Thanks for the suggestions!

Suzie, That's really useful info on the Zimo/Lenz decoders, and really valuable insight there on the Railcom issues. Thanks!

Could I ask you to please expand a little on your last line re: controlling signals on larger layouts? What exactly are 'extended accessory packets' and will the websites of all controllers that support them, declare such capabilities clearly - or like in computing, is this a capability that each supplier has their own terms for?

Great feedback so far, really glad I came here to seek the expertise in this community.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
Bigmet
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Bigmet »

RBTKraisee wrote:...I'll go take a look at their radio control offerings - and Ring Eng...
Do let us know what you think. I made my career in a high tech industry, and thinking in technology life cycle terms am surprised that DCC hasn't yet been clearly displaced by a successor system after circa 35 years on the market. Despite liking what DCC offered when I was planning my re-entry to railway modelling, I held off on a DCC system purchase for five years, thinking that an obvious successor might imminently emerge. But as it was, 'nothing doing' and fifteen years on DCC is still 'the obvious choice' and no dominant successor system has yet emerged. That dam's gotta break sometime...
Suzie
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Suzie »

Extended accessory packets are used to send the signal aspect in a single packet, it saves a lot of data traffic on the DCC track bus which can get quite busy when a lot of signals change aspect at once. If you don't have extended accessory support you can have quite a lot of turnout packets sent to set the state of the signals, often two or four packets to set the aspect on a four aspect signal. Additionally if you are using flashing aspects (flashing green, flashing yellow, or flashing double yellow) you get a lot of traffic turning the flashing lamps on and off continuously which does not happen with extended accessory packets. All of this traffic can result in a lack of responsiveness, and on some command stations you can overload the command station with commands.

Most ExpressNet based systems such as Lenz do not support extended accessory packets because the ExpressNet has never been extended to have the required extra commands. Some systems support sending arbitrary packets and this can be used as a workaround, but Lenz specifically block this on later systems (V3.6)

LocoNet and NCE systems do support the extended accessory packets, as does Sprog which can be used as an additional command station just to run a separate accessory bus for the cost of computer interface for most systems.
RBTKraisee
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

Bigmet wrote:
RBTKraisee wrote:...I'll go take a look at their radio control offerings - and Ring Eng...
Do let us know what you think. I made my career in a high tech industry, and thinking in technology life cycle terms am surprised that DCC hasn't yet been clearly displaced by a successor system after circa 35 years on the market. Despite liking what DCC offered when I was planning my re-entry to railway modelling, I held off on a DCC system purchase for five years, thinking that an obvious successor might imminently emerge. But as it was, 'nothing doing' and fifteen years on DCC is still 'the obvious choice' and no dominant successor system has yet emerged. That dam's gotta break sometime...
Bigmet, I agree. It looks like the model railway control system world has been a bit stagnant. Certainly looks ripe for a newcomer to disrupt the marketplace. The R/C option is curious, but just doesn't seem to offer the maturity and convenience levels that I'm personally looking for.

First, I haven't been able to find any R/C receivers small enough for all my N gauge steam loco's (Dapol Hall's have particularly small spaces available), that also offers the full range of capabilities and functions compared to the better Zimo decoder's in terms of control, additional functions and wide range of sounds.

Also, I noticed that most of the R/C systems I found (Tam Valley, Soundtraxx and BluRail specifically - Ring Eng's RailPro looks to be a valid exception) seem to be targeted primarily at dead rail solutions, where the track is not powered. I can imagine a few cases where that might be useful, but it isn't a requirement I have. If you remove the track power, you need to power the trains directly with their own batteries, and that adds a level of inconvenience that turns me off the idea. I also suspect that for N gauge, hiding the batteries will be a real problem. They aren't going to fit in my steam loco's, which means that if I want more than 30 minutes of running time I'll have install batteries into my carriages. I prefer to show prototypical details inside my carriages, and I just don't want blanked windows that are hiding battery packs! And I just know that remembering to put all my trains somewhere to recharge before walking away is going to be a pain on my larger design. From my RC car experiences, I something will inevitably get forgotten, and I'll be quite annoyed when that happens. Powered track is definitely the way to go for my railway. I'll still have to provide table-wide power for building lights, turnout switches and signals, so DCC seems to makes more sense.

I think its an interesting idea to use R/C for controlling model railways, and I look forward to seeing the manufacturers add greater capabilities in the future, but right now I don't currently see any 'killer app' feature that makes me want to jump to it and away from track powered DCC.

DCC still seems to have the advantage today over R/C solutions, but I think innovative new projects like DCC++ and JMRI, show that disruption is still very possible in this marketplace. Who knows what might happen over the next 5 years! :)

Ross.
Last edited by RBTKraisee on Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
RBTKraisee
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by RBTKraisee »

Suzie wrote:Extended accessory packets are used to send the signal aspect in a single packet...
Thanks for the explanation. I've now been able to go check the manufacturers pages, and after some hunting, I can identify that my currently leading systems do appear to support this. As I grind down to a final decision I'll definitely keep this point in mind.

So, right now - not finalized - I'm leaning towards a combination of:

1) Roco z21 (white / unlocked) main controller - looks to do everything I want (don't think I want any LocoNet/CAN hand controllers and the setup isn't large enough to need the Sniffer - yet), with a UI that I like the look of and I can easily wire up a separate switch between main and program tracks
2) DCC++/JMRI secondary controller, able to run everything, UI is 'okay' (could be improved greatly, but better than the manual boxes), but I like the versatility and ability to tweak the hell out of it
3) Octopus III's (multiple) controlling 9G Servo motors, for the turnouts

I haven't decided what to use for controlling signals, sensors and off-track building & street lights and other misc. things yet, but I *suspect* I can probably make everything work using one or other of the two controllers above.

What do people here think I'm still missing or haven't properly taken into account? Anyone see any "gotcha's" I'm still too newbie to see?

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us are going to the Stars." -Robert Heinlein/Lazarus Long.
Suzie
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Suzie »

Sounds good. You will be able to connect JMRI to both primary and secondary controllers at the same time (and use JMRI throttles should you need them), and you probably don't need to go for the complexity and expense of DCC++ for your secondary command station - a Sprog3 will be fine.
Bigmet
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Re: US or Euro DCC Controller for a British-themed layout in Florida

Post by Bigmet »

RBTKraisee wrote:...I noticed that most of the R/C systems I found (Tam Valley, Soundtraxx and BluRail specifically - Ring Eng's RailPro looks to be a valid exception) seem to be targeted primarily at dead rail solutions, where the track is not powered. I can imagine a few cases where that might be useful, but it isn't a requirement I have. If you remove the track power, you need to power the trains directly with their own batteries, and that adds a level of inconvenience that turns me off the idea. I also suspect that for N gauge, hiding the batteries will be a real problem. They aren't going to fit in my steam loco's, which means that if I want more than 30 minutes of running time I'll have install batteries into my carriages...
Ross, thanks for taking time to give us your thoughts, appreciate it.

We are very much on the same page: any successor system has to at very least match, and should really be an advance in convenience over what we have had from DC and DCC. Just for a start, I want 'switch on, operate' and no need to handle a loco other than at mechanism service intervals. There seem to me to be two major problems damaging the prospects of R/C for model railway.

First is an all too frequent obsesion with eliminating track power. But what we very often need are tiny batteries, and since we have to lay a pair of wires for the trains to run on, what's the problem with at least offering as a standard option near continuous recharge of small batteries? (Realistically a couple of minutes endurance is all that is required. If the plain track alone is powered and points are left 'dead' there's a huge wiring simplification potential - why, a new track system offering this very feature could be sold too - and there are all the benefits of not having to handle the locos regularly, which is where all the damage to detail and finish occurs.)

Second is an estupido mental block, of insisting on 'binding' receivers to transmitters. Trains for home operation don't need this. Open broadcast of addressed signal packets will do the job just as well as the addressed signal packets through the rails that DCC demonstrates. (This might lead to problems at exhibitions, but that's a fraction of the market, and there is a solution for those that specifically require this functionality.)
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