Power Supply

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FergusK
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Power Supply

Postby FergusK » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:19 pm

I have an 8x4 layout, N Scale, with 4 loops and some sidings. I reckon I need more power to supply the sidings as my locos run fine on the straight track, but stall on the points within the sidings (no matter how clean the track is).

I have a Fleischmann 680801 power supply. Would it be better to have a Z21 light booster (10805) or a Z21 single booster (10806)? I have one bus wire with droppers for each track. With the booster, do I need to cut the bus wire for the sidings section (therefore two separate sections) and connect directly to the booster (while having the booster connected to the main supply (680801)?

Thanks
Ferg

Bigmet
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Re: Power Supply

Postby Bigmet » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:26 pm

Stalling on points is a power pick up problem. Extra current capacity won't help. Spend the money on:
Better live crossing points, if the current points are dead crossing,
Improving pick ups on the locos,
Stay alive, if the first two don't cure the problem on all locos.

FergusK
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Re: Power Supply

Postby FergusK » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:06 pm

Yeah, I'm going to have to go through all the solders again, as it's frustrating they keep stopping. I'll try this first and see what happens. I was even contemplating ripping up the layout and starting again.
Thanks for the response.

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footplat47
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Re: Power Supply

Postby footplat47 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:08 pm

If the loco is not moving too slowly then flywheels help. I though the flywheels Hornby tried out where quite good at smoothing out the movement of locos. It seems it did not catch on.. To costly for the brass I wonder. They could have used a cheaper metal.
Never enough time is there.........John

Bigmet
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Re: Power Supply

Postby Bigmet » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:44 pm

Flywheels are tough in N, it's mass at the circumference at the largest diameter possible you need for effectiveness, and there isn't the volume inside.

And I don't think it's the cost of the brass or the machining for balance, because all the larger OO diesel and electric traction models with centre drives from Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and Hornby have two good size brass flywheels, and very effective they are too, and the price is not outrageous. Probably has more to do with what the manufacturers feel the customer base expects.

I always put flywheels on my self build mechanisms if there was space, and have added them to several RTR OO models. Ironically the first 'current standard' RTR OO steam model with a flywheel appeared just after I got started in DCC which successfully replicates the flywheel effect electronically. That was the Bachmann 9F, and it really shows when operating on DC.

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roganty
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Re: Power Supply

Postby roganty » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 pm

FergusK wrote:I have an 8x4 layout, N Scale, with 4 loops and some sidings. I reckon I need more power to supply the sidings as my locos run fine on the straight track, but stall on the points within the sidings (no matter how clean the track is).
[..]I have one bus wire with droppers for each track[...]


FergusK wrote:Yeah, I'm going to have to go through all the solders again, as it's frustrating they keep stopping. I'll try this first and see what happens. I was even contemplating ripping up the layout and starting again.



At which place do they stall on the sidings?

If it's on the points themselves, are you using insulfrog or electrofrog? It could be that the loco is stalling on the frog, or there is a bad connection with the point blade.

If it's nowhere near the points, then it is more than likely down to the droppers on the sidings.

As your locos run fine on the loops there is nothing wrong with your locos.
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FergusK
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Re: Power Supply

Postby FergusK » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:34 pm

They are all electrofrog points. It doesn't seem to matter what speed the loco goes. All locos have the flywheel- I guess it must be a bad connection as I've cleaned the points with isopropyl and something similar to goo gone.

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roganty
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Re: Power Supply

Postby roganty » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:19 pm

FergusK wrote:They are all electrofrog points. It doesn't seem to matter what speed the loco goes. All locos have the flywheel- I guess it must be a bad connection as I've cleaned the points with isopropyl and something similar to goo gone.


I'll assume you have some form of multimeter. Set it to the continuity test.
With the power turned off to the rails, place one probe on one side of a point and run the other probe over the top of the rail, don't forget to test the blade with the point set in both directions.

Hopefully this should shed a bit more light on your problem.
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Peterm
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Re: Power Supply

Postby Peterm » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:49 am

As you're using live frogs, have you made the wiring mods so that you're not relying on point blade contact for supply?
If not you'll need to lift the points to do those mods and also use insulated joiners on the frog rails to prevent shorts unless they're dead end sidings. I do this anyway... belt and braces.
Pete.

FergusK
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Re: Power Supply

Postby FergusK » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:38 am

Yeah, I've insulated joiners on the frogs - but I've not made any mods..guess I'll follow your suggestion and fix the points so that power is not relied upon the point blade.
I'm using code 55 peco points, I'm not using any point motors (except for my 3 way and double slip) but if I make any changes as per this link: http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions ... O-2014.pdf, do I need point motors to make this change? Sorry if thats a stupid question.

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footplat47
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Re: Power Supply

Postby footplat47 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:17 pm

Sorry Bigmet about the Flywheel post I did not notice we were talking about N gauge I was thinking about OO . I make the mistake that everybody else does oo as well. :oops:
Never enough time is there.........John

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roganty
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Re: Power Supply

Postby roganty » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:39 pm

FergusK wrote:Yeah, I've insulated joiners on the frogs - but I've not made any mods..guess I'll follow your suggestion and fix the points so that power is not relied upon the point blade.


FerhusK, this mod is not really required for N, it can be done if wanted but is a lot more fiddly than in OO.

Have you soldered the track joins together, or are they joined together by just the rail joiners.
It might be that one of them has become dislodged.


Edit: edited to clarify point
Last edited by roganty on Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Peterm
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Re: Power Supply

Postby Peterm » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:55 pm

Why is it not required in N? I haven't used N gauge points, but surely the point blades are the contact between them and the stock rail rather than from the frog. If supplied by the frog, they'd need a polarity switch and isolation from the frog to prevent shorting wouldn't they?
Pete.

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roganty
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Re: Power Supply

Postby roganty » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:57 am

Peterm wrote:Why is it not required in N? I haven't used N gauge points, but surely the point blades are the contact between them and the stock rail rather than from the frog. If supplied by the frog, they'd need a polarity switch and isolation from the frog to prevent shorting wouldn't they?


Peterm, what I should have said was:
roganty wrote:this mod is not really required for N, it can be done if wanted but is a lot more fiddly than in OO.

I have amended my original post.

Opinion is divided, but the general consensus is that it is not needed.

There is also this post for reference
Main Layout: Planning | The Build

Erikslund - a small shunting layout

FergusK
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 11:09 am

Re: Power Supply

Postby FergusK » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:25 pm

Hi,
I've soldered the track feed to each rail just before the point switch/tie bar.


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