Removing dcc

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Buelligan
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Removing dcc

Postby Buelligan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:18 am

A quick question, is it possible to remove dcc stuff from a loco so I can run it using an old analogue controller?

I’ve seen a set I want, but it’s got a dcc sound unit in it, which would be great for the future, but at the moment I am only able to run using analogue controllers. So would like to be able to disconnect the decider or whatever it is inside the loco and run normally, then in the future reconnect the dcc stuff.

Is this possible?

MOD NOTE: Topic moved to the DCC area where it is more suited too and will probably receive more replies.

GWR_fan
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby GWR_fan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:23 am

Assuming that the decoder is not hardwired, then very simple to remove. You need to know how many pins are on the DCC socket and source a suitable blanking plug. Remove the DCC components and fit the blanking plug. Depending on the quality of the decoder then removal may not be necessary. Quality decoders will happily run on analogue with no modification needed, assuming that analogue operation is not disabled on the chip.

Be wary if a newly released model as some manufacturers are using coreless motors these days and when run on analogue the type of power supply used is critical. Coreless motors do not like feedback control.

kebang
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby kebang » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:15 am

Most DCC locos will run on DC (analogue), many are shipped that way. If not you just need to choose 'DC enabled' on the DCC setup. If you do not have access to a DCC controller capable of altering the CV's perhaps the vendor can check the CV and adjust it if neccessary.

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Metr0Land
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Metr0Land » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:25 am

I recently bought a 2nd hand Heljan Met Bo-Bo which had a chip installed but fortunately the seller had kept the blanking plug. After taking out the 21 pin chip she didn't really want to run on DC until I inserted the blanking plug and all was well.

Make sure you can source a blanking plug just in case!

Bigmet
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Bigmet » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:11 am

If the model is identified, then quite likely someone here will know which of the half dozen blanking plugs (for OO) are required. (The plug may even be in the package.)

Although RTR DCC fitted locos are supposed to run on DC as supplied unless packaging states otherwise, most have somewhat degraded control on DC as a result. My preference would be to unplug the decoder, and put in a blanking plug if there is space enough to do this. The DCC kit can stay in place, completely out of circuit by this means. (Some insulation tape over the blanking plug might be a sensible precaution to prevent the decoder plug getting any power.)

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Bufferstop
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:33 am

Some hard wired DCC locos although set to accept DC perform very poorly on it. They tend to be stop/go forward or back with poor low speed control. Those that I've converted to DC have been quite straight forward, find the wires from the pickups to the decoder and those from the decoder to the motor, cut and join each pickup wire to a motor wire, if it runs the wrong way, reverse the connection, tape up the ends of the wires to the decoder and leave in-situ, unless the decoder is visible in the cab or under the boiler. Bachmann "Greggs" are a notorious case, the decoder and PCB are in the cab and are massive, that's why Bachy leave the windows blanked out. Removal and opening up the windows turns it into a decent model, the chassis and body have all sorts of quirky construction, mainly due to being designed as TTE's "Percy" with moving eyes.
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Buelligan
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Buelligan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:55 pm

Thanks for all the replies, it sounds quite promising. According to the advert it’s a Zimo V4 DCC sound chip, a Seuthe smoke stack, and the 3 coaches are fitted with Train Tronics motion sensing lights.

I’ve seen the engine and coaches for considerably less, but they don’t have any of those bits fitted, which from what I can see, for me to buy would cost me the best part of £180, assuming I could fit it all myself.

Mike Parkes
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Mike Parkes » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:21 pm

The one thing to watch using a decoder fitted loco on dc is if an electronic track cleaner is in use as that will destroy the decoder. If removing a decoder to use on loco on dc check their still is interference suppression capacitor still fitted, often they are removed as they can adversely affect a loco performance on dcc and if it is missing you should fit a replacement across the motor terminals.

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Mountain
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Mountain » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:52 pm

DCC locos will run on DC (Assuming they are not programmed to avoid DC) as long as you are not using feedback type DC controllers or using electronic track cleaners. (As the decoder will pick up the frequencies that the track cleaners or the feedback controllers apply and assume them to be a DCC signal).
To remove a decoder is easy these days as all one needs is the relevant blanking plug for the socket. It was a little more difficult when everything was hard wired but not impossible.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:18 pm

If the factory fitted suppressors have been removed, you don't need to replace them, unless it is causing interference,. Different rules for manufacturers and users. I live a!most forty miles from the transmitter. I have various locos and other motors which are not suppressed, none of them cause the slightest interference, even the clapped out old orbital sander when operated next to the set. Only thing that ever does is the pizza delivery lads moped. He still hasn't worked out how we appear at the door just as he's about to ring the bell, interference stops, walk to door.
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Ironduke
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Ironduke » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 pm

It seems Zimo decoders will give you sound even on DC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeQoh3tgJ6Y
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Rob

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Peterm
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Peterm » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:56 pm

Buelligan wrote:Thanks for all the replies, it sounds quite promising. According to the advert it’s a Zimo V4 DCC sound chip, a Seuthe smoke stack, and the 3 coaches are fitted with Train Tronics motion sensing lights.

I’ve seen the engine and coaches for considerably less, but they don’t have any of those bits fitted, which from what I can see, for me to buy would cost me the best part of £180, assuming I could fit it all myself.

Not wanting to be picky but if it's a V4, it's an ESU. If it's a Zimo, it'll have an MX **** number. Both of these should run OK on dcc as long as they are set for it. But as said, make sure there are no HF units connected to the track.
Pete.

Buelligan
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Buelligan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:42 am

Ok, I'll admit I'm a little lost with some of these terms. What is a feedback type controller? We're currently using an old 'Hammant & Morgan Duette' controller, (identical to this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HAMMANT-MORGAN-H-M-Duette-twin-track-controller-transformer-12vDC-Tested-/173710550825?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 )this is unlikely to get replaced (unless it stops working) until we decide to go DCC.

Whats a DCC ESU? And how does it differ form a DCC decoder?

If you were in my shoes, would you buy it and hope either A: you can easily get it running on DC control, or B: keep it looking nice in the box/on the shelf until you get DCC to use it on. Or would you give it a miss, and buy the cheaper options that will run on DC control, but not have the lights in the coaches endnote have the smoke unit in the loco?

It's a Hornby 'Silver Jubilee' set. Silver King and 3 coaches, with the Zimo V4, Seuthe smoker, and TrainTronics coach lights, for £295. Or just the standard Hornby 'Silver Jubilee' set, but with Quicksilver and 3 coaches for between £175 and £195.

I keep changing my mind between saving the money now and get the DC set, then get the smoker etc as and when I can, then I think about the cost of the individual parts, and start to think it'd be better to spend more initially and have it all there already.

Also I think the £295 set is tender driven (emphasis on the 'think') unsure of the production or release year, whereas apparently the £195 set is engine driven, and he says its from 2009. No idea which would be best.

All opinions welcomed!

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Ironduke
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Ironduke » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am

If you know you want DCC eventually, why not do that first?
Regards
Rob

Bigmet
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Re: Removing dcc

Postby Bigmet » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:20 am

I wouldn't touch the s/h tender drive loco alone, Hornby's old and now obsolete tender drive is simply poor, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The current loco drive A4 is day over night superior as a mechanism.

Second count against: the set has been significantly altered with smoke, DCC sound and train lights. Whoever did all that work may be highly competent, but without a DCC system you have no way of testing it fully on receipt to find out.

The 2009 set with a loco drive A4 is a far better bet.

ESU = 'Electronic Solutions Ulm' a manufacturer of electronic goods, including DCC decoders and systems. Other European DCC makers you will read about a lot, Lenz and Zimo. (Having tested nearly everything, those are the three decoder brands on my layout, mostly Lenz, then Zimo, a few ESU, and all are stable and trouble free.)

Your H&M Duette is an excellent old resistance controller, ideal for running in and testing a mechanism on DC before decoder fitting. It's what I use, for the simple reason that if a mechanism can be got running smoothly down to dead slow on such a poorly regulated 'vanilla' DC controller, it will perform very well indeed when a decoder is fitted. Just get it PAT tested if it isn't already.


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