NCE UTP alternative

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TimberSurf
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NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:24 pm

I will use NCE control on my layout and want 4 plug in points for controllers, so will need UTP 524-207 face plate that has two RJ12 at front and 2 at back that are all parallel connected. They cost £18+ each. Being a skin flint and an Electrical Eng, I will make my own.
I could use a two way face plate and two RJ12 modules and wire Ethernet CAT5 wire to the back of them {thus saving expensive premade "special" RJ12 leads}, but although this type of connector is common in Europe and US, its not here in UK. Import P&P cost prohibit me getting them from abroad {even though they are very cheap over there}. They are available in UK as a RJ12 insert module for structured cabling systems, but would work out at £3.50 a pop! (x2 plus back box cost = £8+). The irony is I have loads of RJ45 (Cat5) surface mount wall sockets that would be ideal. So are free to me (and would be much cheaper for others to buy as RJ45 [Ethernet] is common and therefore cheaper)
[Example http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-Double-Socket-RJ45-Cat5E-Face-Plates-Back-Boxes/200501132617?rt=nc] (that would give 4 plug in points each with two controllers)
The odd thing is, that RJ12 male ends actually fit into a RJ45 socket! [6pin into 8pin].I have tried it and it works fine! (metered wires, so connects electrically as well as mechanically)
So will need a RJ12 lead to connect to command centre, then terminated in a single back box with IDC, some single wires to bridge across the two sockets, then standard Ethernet cable from the second socket out of the back box and on to the next double socket, etc
I can even wire up a LED and resistor and have "power" indication the same as the NCE UTP!
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Bufferstop
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:54 pm

Hi I think it's just the difference between Cat5 and Cat5e cable. Cat5e requires a larger plug to get the wires into the teeth. Cat5e was just starting to get adopted when I retired but at that time it hadn't been ratified and big outfits with Luddite tendencies insisted on sticking with cat5.
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TimberSurf
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:53 pm

Bufferstop, I think (before my time) Cat3 was indeed RJ12! But Cat4 onward is RJ45. RJ12's are still used in UK as the ADSL modem connection to the phone line. RJ12 (cab control) uses 6 wires and 6 pins and RJ45 (Ethernet) uses 8 wires and 8 pins. RJ22 phones use 4 wires and 4 pins are frequently used as the phone line plug into a phone set and also for the handset*.
As shown in the picture below, it is well known that a 4 pin plug will fit in a 6 way socket, my revelation was that the 6 pin plug fits into a 8 pin socket!
The RJ45 physical format is the same for Cat4 through Cat6 (Exception being that Cat6 is shielded)

Rjxx.jpg
RJ comparison
Rjxx.jpg (43.76 KiB) Viewed 1790 times





* There is a swivel device available for phone handsets to stop the coil from kinking, it will be a 4 wire RJ22, but my guess is it would fit in a Cab and Cabs only use 4 of the 6 wires anyway!
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D0260
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby D0260 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:54 am

Does this link provide any clues to answer this RJ12 / RJ45 problem..

www.ncecorporation.com/extras/manuals/c ... t5-old.pdf

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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby D0260 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:12 am


locoworks
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby locoworks » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:28 am

would a digitrax UP5 work?? they are nearer 14 quid than 18. they have the correct connections but i don't know if the electronics side is compatible????

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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:06 am

Cheers D0260, but you missed the point! I don't need any help, I have cracked the diagrams and am offering a solution to replace the NCE products (both the standard UTP and the Ethernet one)! By using a standard wall mount double Ethernet Cat5 socket, as long as you are comfortable to use IDC "push down" wiring, you can eliminate the purchasing of NCE UTP's! (No soldering involved) (no purchase of expensive pre-made cables)
Wire connections are shown below, Colour codes of Ethernet wire and sockets is make dependant, but the point to point is correct. A LED could easily be added to the front plate and the last socket could easily accept an "end of line" snubber.
Numbers in brackets are the cab wire numbers (7 & 8 and 1 & 2 could be joined for very long runs)

UTP Cab control wiring Master 800.jpg
First socket, left to Command station, right to next socket (below)
UTP Cab control wiring Master 800.jpg (36.63 KiB) Viewed 1763 times
UTP Cab control wiring Slave 800.jpg
Second socket, from first on left and onward to right
UTP Cab control wiring Slave 800.jpg (31.83 KiB) Viewed 1763 times


Digitrax UP5 is almost identical to the NCE UTP (has 5 connections instead of NCE's 4), and still needs special RJ12 terminated pre-wired leads to connect between them. (i.e £14 for UP5 and £5 for cable= >£21, Cat5 socket £3 + a bit of Ethernet cable)
Obviously you get one with the command station and if you just want a second, buying another is certainly simpler and not much money, but if like me, you have a large layout and say want 3-5 points, the above would really save a lot!
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Lumsdonia <--- Hit link to go to my website for full story and wiring advice!

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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby D0260 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:49 pm

Yes , thanks for that, I came in late on this conversation having been at exhibitions all weekend, and know I had looked at the possibilty as well. I have the twin sockets next to me and had bookmarked those links as a guide. Thanks for the diagrams, thats exactly what I was trying to do in spare time, so thats a great help. You were a coiple of weeks in front of me!

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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:10 pm

Yes Timbersurf you are right. After giving the old memory banks a good dusting down I came to the conclusion that the situation I was remembering had 6pin fixed wiring and we could insert 4pin connectors if the device only needed 4 wires.
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:56 pm

Just found an Canadian site with full breakdown of how to wire Cab Bus with RJ12 telephone cables!
http://www.railwaybob.com/Modules/WiringRJ12s/RJ12s01.html
Confirms everything I have said, he even goes on to explain that glueing a sliver of plastic onto each side of the internal of the socket, aids insertion into the middle. I cant say that I think this is an issue, but will keep the idea on a virtual shelf, for future use, if I do find its an issue.

If anyone is into this, I will make the circuit diagrams for snubbers, 12v DC injection and LED
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Lumsdonia <--- Hit link to go to my website for full story and wiring advice!

D0260
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby D0260 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:44 pm

Quote...
If anyone is into this, I will make the circuit diagrams for snubbers, 12v DC injection and LED
-----------------------------
Ohhh yes please - Thanks

locoworks
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby locoworks » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:49 pm

TimberSurf wrote:Cheers D0260, but you missed the point! I don't need any help, I have cracked the diagrams and am offering a solution to replace the NCE products (both the standard UTP and the Ethernet one)! By using a standard wall mount double Ethernet Cat5 socket, as long as you are comfortable to use IDC "push down" wiring, you can eliminate the purchasing of NCE UTP's! (No soldering involved) (no purchase of expensive pre-made cables)
Wire connections are shown below, Colour codes of Ethernet wire and sockets is make dependant, but the point to point is correct. A LED could easily be added to the front plate and the last socket could easily accept an "end of line" snubber.
Numbers in brackets are the cab wire numbers (7 & 8 and 1 & 2 could be joined for very long runs)

UTP Cab control wiring Master 800.jpg
UTP Cab control wiring Slave 800.jpg


Digitrax UP5 is almost identical to the NCE UTP (has 5 connections instead of NCE's 4), and still needs special RJ12 terminated pre-wired leads to connect between them. (i.e £14 for UP5 and £5 for cable= >£21, Cat5 socket £3 + a bit of Ethernet cable)
Obviously you get one with the command station and if you just want a second, buying another is certainly simpler and not much money, but if like me, you have a large layout and say want 3-5 points, the above would really save a lot!



fair enough, i purchased RJ12 shells and some 6 core flat cable and a crimp tool all from maplins or farnell quite a few years ago and just make my own cables as necessary.

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TimberSurf
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:23 pm

Locoworks - you are correct, in that it is much cheaper/convenient, if you need many cables, to make your own, subject to buying/borrowing a crimper. But you still need to buy UTP/UP5's!
I would not advocate this for a small to medium size layout, but those that have large (or club sized) layouts and therefore need more than three or four plug in points, the cost starts spiralling. I want 4 plus the original PCP/UTP, so cost would be nearly £100, I have dozens of Ethernet sockets and cable so completely free to me!
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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby locoworks » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:33 pm

go digitrax with a UR92 and DT402D's and you won't need any UP5's :twisted: but it would be cheaper to use UP5's and a few cables rather than go wireless. on the other hand if you had a really big layout with multiple operating positions radio might be worth the money to simplify the wiring and avoid the constant plug/unplug??

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Re: NCE UTP alternative

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:05 pm

Already made my mind to go NCE and though I would luv radio, I don't NEED it. I will have 3 controllers plugged in around the "hole" in the middle. Money is reserved for essentials first, like 40 point motors and 20-50 decoders!
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