Sleuth Smoke Unit

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mikem64
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Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby mikem64 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:47 am

Gents,

I've had some Sleuth smoke units for sometime now in my box of tricks. If I understand them correctly I can attach the +ve power supply wire to a decoder so it is controlled by a function key.

I will be using the standard Bachmann 36-553 decoder which has an 8 pin plug, my question is how do I connect the smoke unit to the decoder & what colour is the wire I attach it too ?

I also assume the negative or return wire is just connected to the metal earth chassis to complete the circuit ?

Any advise welcome as a really fancy fitting one to either BR 7MT or A3 DCC Ready model which is currently stored under the layout.

Thank you.

Mike.
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Bigmet
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Bigmet » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:01 am

I think you may find they are 'Seuthe' smoke units. (If you want to be fancy and pronounce that name as the maker would expect 'Zoyter' is a reasonable representation.)

Before connecting anything, you must determine what current draw the smoke unit will impose on the decoder. This decoder has a maximum continuous output of 700mA, with 180mA available from an auxiliary output, combined total from auxiliaries 350mA (leaves 350mA for the motor). As supplied, the white and yellow wires are assigned to running front and rear lights switched on/off by F0, the green wire is on F1. If the A3 and Brit are the current Hornby loco drive models, 350mA will be enough for the efficient black can motor, so you can use all the remaining 350mA to power the smoke unit if you do not also want to run lighting. Auxiliary return is by the blue wire. You can wire from the socket to the smoke unit, or cut the wires off the plug and take them directly to the smoke unit, your choice. Wiring to the socket means that a later decoder change is a simple unplug/plug substitution.

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Flashbang
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Flashbang » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:47 am

Hi
On DCC I would recommend using a sub miniature 12 volt relay to operate the smoke unit.
if you must use a smoke unit, as I personally hate them as they are IMO so unrealistic.

Connect one wiring tag of the relays coil to one of the function output wires (e.g. Green). Its other coil wiring tag to the Blue wire. Then take a feed connection from the red decoder wire connection to the relays common change-over contact. From the contact on the relay that makes to the common contact when the relay is energised take a wire to the smoke unit. From the smoke unit take the other wire to the decoders black wire connection. You will need to ensure the smoke unit is insulated from any metal chassis.

So now the smoke unit will only operate when the appropriate function key is operated, such as 'F1' if the green function wire is used.
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poliss
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby poliss » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:09 pm

TCS say that you could use two function wires to power the smoke unit. See http://www.tcsdcc.com/public_html/Custo ... ge.php?q=5

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mikem64
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby mikem64 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:30 pm

Hi Gents,

Many thanks for the replies, I know these units are not exactly 100% in effect but I just fancy something different to fit into a few of my none sound fitted models.

I understand they are to be used for short periods at a time or they might damage the model / unit by overheating. The models to be fitted are the newer ones, forgot to mention that in the original email.

Sounds pretty straight forward now you've all pointed me in the right direction, just need to get myself better so I can get into the loft.

Once again, big thank you for your time.

Mike.
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Martin71
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Martin71 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:22 am

Hi

I do find Seuthe fairly effective if set up properly. Another option is to control a relay via a function, this only pulls about 30mA and allows you then to control the generator. The relay also provides protection for your decoder plus it allows you to like more than 1 smoke unit in parallel.

I still use the odd seuthe unit but have gone to building my own fan forced units which are now in sync with the chuff rate.

Realistic well that depends on how you see it. For me it adds another dimension to your loco. I remember before working scale lights were available people would argue how unrealistic it was but yet a steam loco couldnt run on a main or branch line with out one............

I suppose the same view has being taken with smoke, but I'm guessing when the new fan forced units which are dcc friendly and suitable for OO be come available some views will change.

Here is duel Seuthes controlled by a relay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBnCMpZJce4

m

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mikem64
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby mikem64 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:05 am

Hi Gents,

What size are these micro relays ? What price would they normally retail at ? I normally would get supplies my basic electronic bits from Rapid ? If I know what I'm looking for it makes the purchase easier. Sorry if this all sound stupid, but I just don't want to buy the wrong stuff (Which I have done many times in the past)

I know it's another component that needs fitting but the idea of protecting the decoder with the use of a relay sounds like solid advice.

OK it's for a cheap Bachmann 36-553 but if this works I might be tempted to have a bash with an ESU Loksound decoder which is a very expensive piece of kit to blow up.

Thank you,
Mike.
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Flashbang
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Flashbang » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:26 am

Hi
This is one example from the Rapid relay list...
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Relays-Solenoids/PCB-Relays/Microminiature-2A-DPDT-relay/65078/kw/12v+micro+relay
Measures 14 x 9 x 4.75mm. Coil 12 volt
Wired coil on pins No. 1 & 10. Use contacts on pins No. 3 & 4 for powering smoke unit.

There are other and possibly some even smaller? But this was one I spotted on the suppliers site you mentioned.
Hope it helps?
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

Gronk12

Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Gronk12 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:05 pm

Watch how you mount the unit into the loco body. Do not let it touch or rest against anything plastic as they do get hot enough to melt, deform plastic and with time heat may discolour paint.

Do not over fill with and wipe all spills and splashes of smoke oil off paintwork too as some (not all) paint finishes with time will lift and discolour on you too.

If you want to mount a motor and fan assembly to achieve that chuff affect, DCC supplies sell mirco motors that also fit nicely into diesel units to achieve a simulated diesel start up using a Seuthe or drive cooling fans. http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/index.php?cPath=170

tibrahim
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby tibrahim » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:30 am

Flashbang
I am interested in the relay idea & have ordered some from Rapid but I did not understand all the pin connections, could you please repeat which wire goes on which pin again. Also do you need to add a resistor to the blue wire to reduce the voltage if so what size. Thanks

Martin71
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Martin71 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:23 am

Hi

A couple of photos may help. This relay is a DPDT 1A coil is 30mA.

Tails to smoke units wired in parallel. Notice I have cut out 2 legs between control side and power in. They are not used so to reduce a chance of a short cut them out and coat with nail varnish.

Image

Blue added on control side. You need to get this right as reverse blue and purple and the relay will not work.

Image

Pick ups added from track plus purple.

Image

I hope that gives you some idea.

m

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Flashbang
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Flashbang » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Hi
An update....
Rapid have launched a new web site, so the previously supplied link to the DPDT miniature relay no longer works.
This is the new link..... Rapid relay link

You can switch both wires feeding the Smoke Unit if wished or just switch the one. If both are switched then the contact / pin numbers are 3 & 4 for one pair of contacts and 7 & 8 for the other. Blue decoder wire goes onto pin 1 and Green (for F1 operation) goes onto pin 10.

A diode - 1N4001 can be wired across pins 1 & 10 (the coil of the relay) and needs to have its banded end to the Blue wire connection.
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

tibrahim
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby tibrahim » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:19 pm

Thanks for the info that gives me an option forward just hope the relay fits in a R52s Jinty!!

tibrahim
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby tibrahim » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:25 pm

Fitted the Sapphire decoder to the relay spoken about & wired like the pictures above & touch wood it works. I am concerned that it is getting very hot & will burn out the element, as there is no resistor. I did try a resistor on the smoke unit red wire 120 ohms but it got so hot it melted the solder & disconnected. Because I had disconnected the 1n4001 diode that was across pin 1 &10 at the time I destroyed the hornby R8249 decoder with it. I hope the sapphire decoder can handle it. Have I done something wrong or is overheating normal?

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Flashbang
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Re: Sleuth Smoke Unit

Postby Flashbang » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:43 am

Hi
You have I feel listened to advice by someone on another forum where a resistors ohm value was given but they failed to give you any details of the resistors wattage required!
I would be looking to use a resistor with a wattage of at least 2watt. Even this will get hot.
The DCC rail volts may be too high for the unit? Hence the requirement to add a resistor in series with the smoke unit.

The diode across the relay coil is there to overcome the Bemf current in the relay circuits coil when the coil volts are cut off. IT MUST BE WIRED THE CORRECT WAY AROUND. Its banded end to the Blue wire and its non banded end to the Green wire.
Have you followed the wiring diagram I sent you a link too in a PM? Which is here (Scroll down a little to the smoke unit wiring) Link to item
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.


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