West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Post pictures and information about your own personal model railway layout that is under construction. Keep members up-to-date with what you are doing and discuss problems that you are having.
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TimberSurf
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby TimberSurf » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:01 am

Dad-1 wrote: I'm still trying to work out a safe,
reliable operation system from underboard to be used by heavy handed operators !!
Geoff T.

Use a large diameter omega loop (like 2 inches) in the wire linkage and put stops to the actual movement of the signal at the desirable ends of its travel. :)
Image
Lumsdonia <--- Hit link to go to my website for full story and wiring advice!

Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Hi TimberSurf,

That's certainly one way. I have currently in mind a weighted fine wire attachment
to the existing signal operating balance weight. Straight through the base board with
strong permanent 'stops' for travel in both directions. The signal will be off while held
up and return to on when finger removed.

Anyway regardless of that I've just about finished everything else I was intending to do.
I may try to photograph tomorrow with the whole thing joined together. What I thought
would be a serious problem has worked out O.K. The Kadee magnets were inserted into
pockets with a closing cover screwed on. No real damage getting off, just a few grains
of ballast. I found the large underboard magnets had been set in place without the
enhancer plate. With them in place all couplings now move quite well, maybe too well,
but until we start serious running that's an unknown.

Image

I though I'd add a picture of West Bay taken around 1920. I hope everyone can see the
compressed similarity in this layout. By the time of this photograph much of the cattle
pen had fallen into disrepair, but even when working to a real location changes that have
taken place bring incosistancies and we need to have something of interest. We will
pretend that passenger services continued after the early 1930's ...... until when ? That
will depend on the stock we want to run !!

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:51 pm

My working at home is now at an end, there are still things to be done, but others need to take an interest.
I've had up in the kitchen to try working over the Kadee magnets. Not everything spot on, but near enough.
This is the full layout, two scenic boards and the one blank fiddle yard - not much to fiddle with, but the sad
truth is West Bay was a rather quiet backwater however it offers a fair amount of shunting to shuffle stock around.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Not exactly the locomotive you'd expect to see here, but it was one of my few Kadee fitted locomotives.
I hope you can see the similarity with the actual location albeit highly compressed on the signal side of the
station.
As always a niggle arises just as you think you've cracked it. Our new looking, but rather old Dapol milk wagons
have muffed split axles. The B2B was too narrow causing jumping on the 'fine scale' point check rails. If you tried
to re-set to 14.50 mm the axles jammed solid in the axle boxes ! Even at 14.35 ( a second setting I use sometimes)
there was far too much drag. Add to that the 3 axle chassis with NO lateral movement and they were never going
to run well. First file away the flanges from a current Dapol solid axle and fit to the centre, grind off the pinpoint
tips on the other modern replacement axle sets to allow some sideways movement and it LOOKS like it may work !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:58 am

That photo is quite surprising, I expected more of the buildings to be there by 1920. Despite West Bay being a GWR identikit building, it's remarkably identifiable.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Well just as you think the jobs almost over, disasters strike.
We need newer locomotives, most club stock being rather old
with traction tyres and no NEM pockets. We had one newer loco,
a Hornby M7 that was DCC ready. I'd already purchased 3 Lenz
silver minis as these are as happy running DC as DCC.

Well the M7 has very little room inside with a reccomendation that
you prise off tank filler caps to reveal screws that hold ballast weights
in the body sides to obtain enough space. Mmmmm I think not.
Using a Lenz mini there should be ample space where the 8 pin socket
sits, removal of socket and grinding off the front screw boss gives loads
of space keeping side tank weights in place.
All to do is hard wire the decoder in ........ I must have had too much heat
on the motor terminals as the motor no longer runs. Did it before I started ?
I think so. Now awaiting a replacement motor from Peters Spares. So much
for a one hour job !!
Sealed motors with brushes held in a plastic end where terminals are soldered
on is probably not a good design. Now if only I'd left the original leads in place,
just splicing the decoder wires on nearer the decoder I'd not have had the problem !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:52 pm

Ouch, It may look good, run quite well, but I never want to take a Hornby
M7 apart again !!
There is next to no space for a standard sized decoder. Yet there is an 8 pin socket
fitted, plus the legally obligatory interference capacitor. This is what can come out :-

Image

I ground away the forward screw locating pillar for the socket. This left more than
enough space for a Lenz Silver Mini. BUT BEWARE, to be tidy I intended adding the
decoder motor leads direct to the motor. In so doing I wrecked the sealed electric
motor. The motor brushes are in a plastic end and heat can damage their springing.
No contact to commutator result - permanently dead motor. Replacement inc posting
over £12. This time I kept all heat well away from the motor, joining to the decoder
away from both components !!!
Putting together was also a nightmare with 3 types of screw out of 4 and they are
NOT interchangeable, a one hour job has taken several hours and time delay while
awaiting a new part.

They Did/Do want a DC compatible decoder adding to what may be a split chassis
Bachmann small prairie ....... Plus converting for Kadees. I think somebody else
should try and feel the pain !

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:54 pm

Geoff, it's only legally obligatory for the manufacturer to fit it, there's no obligation on you to retain it if it will run without it and not cause interference. With the demise of analogue TV you would have to run your aerial lead through the baseboard to disrupt it. I shared a tea urn with the TVI investigation boys for about 18 months, and they reckoned that 90% of the complaints they got could be cured by using a proper aerial instead of a bit of wire or set top aerial. Digital TV has a similarity to DCC, the signal is at constant amplitude, so interference spikes can be chopped of before going to the tuner, then when the signal is decoded the error checking can filter out most of it. If the capacitor is causing a problem take it out, run the motor in the same room as the TV, if it doesn't interfere at that range you can forget it.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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Mountain
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Mountain » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:38 am

Dad-1 wrote:Ouch, It may look good, run quite well, but I never want to take a Hornby
M7 apart again !!


I find today that where once one simple component did the job, today there has to be several which are just waiting to spring off in many directions and are like a mechanical Tetris puzzle to put back in. I've not seen the insides of an M7, but if it is like some of the modern designs I have seen.... :shock:
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

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Chops
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Chops » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:04 am

A most interesting view of British club modular layout construction. The horse draw conveyances add a remarkable element to the whole mis-en-scene. Done some club modular work here in the USA. About enough stress to kill a man. Plenty of skinned knuckles, pints of sweat, but no tears as I was too busy banging my head on the floor. Really a work of art there.
I don't care what they say. I believe in Nessie.

Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Thanks for the comment chops,

The current fiasco is trying to get the Kadee magnet strength right, which of course
it never will be !
Initially the underboard magnets were too deep, barely a flicker as a wagon was run over it
by hand. Add the enhancing plate on the magnets back and while the uncoupling now works
our wagons trundle along with what I've always called magnet creep. IF only we could get
standard British wagon wheel sets with brass wheels on stainless axles I think we could get
good results easily - otherwise we struggle to get enough magnet without getting too much !!!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:05 pm

Geoff in the absence of 2mm dia stainless steel axles I made some, chopped from 2mm brass rod from Eileen's, turned to a point in the collet of by drill, with it turned horizontal in the stand. The Hornby and Bachmann wheels didn't seem to be affected just the steel axles.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Hi Bufferstop,

Kadees are generally a failure when trying to shunt just one, 9, or 10 ft chassis British outline wagon.
Many of those who claim they are so good, have HAD to find a way to make them do the promised job.
Let's start with the run around on passenger trains, no real problem as the length and rolling resistance
of two, or three carriages means you don't get Magnet Creep. Some using the basis of cost have several
wagons permanently connected with their tension-lock couplings and just have a Kadee on each end.
Again this is a way of side-stepping the Magnetic Creep problem, even fully convinced users are noted
as putting some brake mechanism on wagons to prevent unwanted movement.

Magnet Creep happens when somewhere in the wagon there is enough magnetic material for it to be dragged
along to centralize over the essential magnet. This can cause wagons to re-engage couplings as they are now
at the end of the magnetic operational window.

Some say this is a problem of too much magnet, but you must have sufficient to pull the knuckle into the
free shunting position, or you're simply not going to get the full required action.

Complications come because of wagon construction and the use of magnetic axle sets.

Image

As you can see it takes some pull to keep axle sets on an almost vertical surface !!

To make matters worse many wagons have a magnetic metal weight hidden in the chassis. In the case of
most Dapol rolling stock the body has a large magnetic screw visible on the base that traps the weight in
addition to holding chassis and body together.

Image

Personally I remove the weight, gently prising the (usually) lightly glued body and chassis apart through the
holes that are above each wheel. Now wagons are light enough anyway, so I add a replacement lead weight
in the vacated space. In my case as shown here some thin lead - in fact the final pieces of Jordan F1 wheel
balance weight I have.

Image

When doing this I came across an unexpected hopefully helpful situation. I recently bought 8 un-painted
Dapol opens and have found that randomly half have non-magnetic axle sets. This was unexpected and will
start me on a hunt, checking out as of my wagon stock that I can be tempted to try. As Bufferstop says by
making ones own brass axles it is possible to escape some of that magnet creep. On my HSII shunting
layout every wagon was fitted with a brass wire brake to retard and work against magnet creep, but in so
doing has reduced the maximum wagon load to 6, which by sheer good luck is the maximum you can
use on that layout.

All this on the layout thread rather than my Workbench as this is all part of getting West Bay fully operational.
Here is a 4 plank wagon now painted and decalled, just 7 more to do, some GWR, some NE. I was miffed
when I tried to get other club members to paint a wagon (or more) and had NO takers. I'm beginning to get
frustrated that the initial interest when we collectively decided to make a new layout seems to have vanished.

Image

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:13 pm

Geoff, your situation sounds just like the reason I've resolutely reused to join a club, I'm one of the small number of "doers" that you find amongst the sea of "watchers" and "talkers about" and no matter what the activity once anyone realise I know a bit more about computers than "switch it off and back on" they all think I should sort their problems for free.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:06 pm

Fix it for free ! - So you should, a man of your experience !

I suppose railway modelling is such a broad church that we must expect as many
different attitudes and aspects of the hobby as a club has members. Doers are
always in a minority though. I do however find that with the shared interest and
an acceptance that everyone is different I like being in a club. Even when that
meant becoming club chairman, after my wife forbade me getting deeply involved.

Anyway I'm thinking it's time to get banned on that other website of experts. I
think I'm going start a thread on how Kadees are not suitable for British Outline
freight stock. That they are simply not compatible with RTR, or even kit built
'00' wagons. Not necessarily because they don't work, but because our wagons are
not suitable due to magnetic axle sets and magnetic ballast deep in wagons.
That they can be coaxed into acceptable reliability is not a reason to say they are
a good product for use with British wagons.

I'm about to make a test track with a void big enough for the large Kadee underboard
magnets, but done so I can continue to experiment, looking for that sweet spot. One
huge obstacle is that I would need a test track with SMP, Peco code 75 and Peco code
100 track as the type of track used will influence results because of the varying depth.
All this fiddle is a reason why I'm not at all certain they are fit for purpose !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:22 pm

Another small step ...............

Image

Which leads on to another

Image

Perhaps because I enjoy modelling, but making up these un-painted Dapol wagons
is not a chore, but making up the tare weight from 3 pieces takes a delicate touch.
Can't really go wrong at £6.50 each - O.K, so I had the paint and decals.

Again here & not my workbench because they're not mine.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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