West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Post pictures and information about your own personal model railway layout that is under construction. Keep members up-to-date with what you are doing and discuss problems that you are having.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:01 pm

Geoff have you experimented with smaller magnets. For the BK modded small tensionlocks I use two 3m diameter by 4mm neodymium rods three sleepers apart on the centre line. It looks as though KDs would need them offset either side of a sleeper or just two appart. They have an advantage in that they can be adjusted by pushing down, or up from below, relying on friction to hold them in place. If they are flush with the sleepers they grab axles, but KDs have one thing in their favour, the tails point forward away from the axles. If you press them down it might be possible to pull the KDs apart without attracting the axles. I did the iron filings on paper trick and their field wraps tightly around them.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:37 pm

Hi Bufferstop,

There is still much experimenting to go on before I give up on the Kadee magnets.
These big underboard jobbies No: 308 are quite weak without their steel 'intensifier'
as Kadee call it.
Set directly under fine scale track they were only 3.5 mm from rail head height, yet barely raised a twitch from the couplings.
Even at this low level of magnetic pull they were able to influence a complete wagon. I'm a great believer in free running stock
and resent having to add brakes to a wagon. Just to be silly (In season ?) I tested a 38XX which just managed to haul 89, this
included a 180% turn of 4th radius curve.

I think Kadees are like "The Kings Clothes", nobody likes to be honest (after spending good money) to admit they are not truly
compatible, with certainly, British outline wagons. We can all see the intended functionality, it's really what we're looking for, but
they require intrusive levels of wagon modification to work to a level of reliability that I for one demand.

As magnetic axle sets have been the norm for a very long time then Kadees don't meet with their promise. They should be almost
a plug in and play component, note I say 'Almost'. I don't expect perfection without a considerable harmonization exercise, which
is exactly what ALL couplings require if you want to say reverse a 40 wagon train through a ladder of points. No that's not unrealistic
as I've done that on Castell Mawr.

Even on RMW someone who obviously thinks they're great admits to converting wagons with those old Bachmann axle sets that had
a plastic muff joining the wheels together. Yes I've got some of them, but you can't just snap into modern Dapol wagons because the
muff is so thick if fouls the screw mounting of the coupling pockets.

So far your suggestion of making your own brass axles is one of the few sensible suggestions, and acknowledging the problem, but does
that make Kadees fit for purpose ?

Anyhow with the intensifier in place the magnet becomes far too strong. I'm wondering if rather than a plate exactly the same size as
the magnet, that a narrow strip down the centre may offer a reduced intensification. It's not my intention to allow this to defeat me,
on HS-II layout wagon brakes did the job .......BUT ....... The saga continues !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:55 pm

The problems with KDs and Uk stock are rather inherent. US stock does not have buffers, and is mainly bogie mounted so the ends don't have as much throw. When knuckle type couplers were introduced on UK coach stock they were mounted on horizontal pin through the back of the hook pushing them further out by about their own length, plus before they could be used a C shaped spacer (about 4" thick I think) had to be removed from behind the buffer head, and the head pushed in to close up the gap. All to extend the reach of the coupler.
Pre NEM coupler pockets the front bar of a mini tensionlock coupler, set just 1mm ahead of the buffers gave a realistic gap for what was a loose coupled train. If you mounted an NEM pocket that far back, first of all it would interfere with the axle; and you would need very long KDs if they were ever going to couple. So they compromised the fitting for tensionlocks and European loop and hook couplings so that KDs could be included.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:16 pm

It's taken me 10 days to go back and take the Hornby M7 apart again.
After adding the decoder the chassis ran fine as I expected.
After the body was put back it didn't run very well, stuttering in either
direction and eventually shutting down - Thank heavans for Lenz decoders
having a safety cut-out.
I was thoroughly peed off and left it sitting on the bench mocking me !!
This last weekend I decided I had to go back inside to work out what was
wrong - was it loads of wires crushed into limited space above the decoder ?

Taken apart, the wires teased loose before sitting on the track and trying again.
Worked perfectly !! After a while, watching the chassis do lap after lap I noted
that one motor terminal was very close to the flange on a driver. So close I
could understand the driver (black Lead) touching the motor terminal (grey Lead)
as it ran, always a slight wobble and lateral play in wheel sets. No wonder the
decoder did odd things before shutting itself down.

Filing away the motor terminal enough to prevent any chance of touching the flange,
perfect, runs a treat.
It's easy to suspect something you've done, particularly when you've de-soldered
3 leads off the decoder and have a locomotive wired with just black sheath cabling
and two sets of pick-up wires - from main drivers and trailing bogie wheels.

Oh joy - it can go back to the club rooms now !!

Meanwhile I continue to fight the Kadees for a level of consistant operation I demand.

Model railways - Kids Play ?????? !!!!!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:10 pm

Nothing exciting today, except I've managed to get the club to agree to dispose of our
two old layouts and the joining corner piece. This means we now have more accessible
space to keep this new layout on which tonight John has been doing some gardening.
Perhaps a photo next week if I remember the camera.

In the meantime I was back running our HS-II layout and after some slight re-adjustment of
the brass wire wagon brakes it worked 100% Great !!!
Now all I have to do is add brakes to all the stock we intend to use on this layout, and harmonize
until it works as well as the shunting layout, not impossible, but it'll be time consuming. Anyone
intending to use Kadees be prepared for a long period of experimenting before you can achieve
reliable functioning.

This coming weekend I shall be at the Weymouth exhibition with our children drive 'Thomas'
layout. Never a dull moment !

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:16 pm

Today it's dull, damp, with low light levels - Oh the joy of Autumn !

I'm currently finishing off our unpainted Dapol opens. I did in the end get one club member
to take a couple, that now leaves me just 1 left. While they may not offer as accurate, or fine
a moulding as a Bachmann wagon, or even a Parkside kit, in my opinion they do offer anyone who
thinks they can paint reasonably well a low cost way of adding stock to their layout.

Image

I'll probably give the club several of my Bachmann Collectors Club issue of Private Owners wagons
to mix in with these big 4 liveried models. Next they all need a long and messy weathering session !

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:06 pm

If you look back a page or two you'll find my 'HSII -The Kadee Experiments' layout.
Although this video is done on that layout it is in fact relevant to getting Kadees
operating reliably on 'West Bay'
Many hours have been spent working on HS-II harmonizing trip pin heights and
magnetic strengths.
IT IS a lot easier using the above sleepers magnets, but these were too unsightly
for me to use and I've kept to the 308 large underboard magnets.

https://youtu.be/uG3CoFnhrMk

I just hope somebody prepared to give-up will continue, you see it CAN be done (just).

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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End2end
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby End2end » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:23 pm

Vehicles for point switching. Ingenious! :mrgreen:
Thanks
End2end
"St Blazey's" - The progress and predicaments.
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Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:45 am

This is proving to be something of a rolling disaster.

The only thing is to bring it back home for continued magnetic testing because the Kadees are
not behaving at all well. Combine that with shorting out on at least one of the Marcway points
and a run-away train damaging one of the delicate Lanarkshire white metal buffers.

In truth the shorting is caused by wheels touching the other switch rail as, in particular 6 wheel
stock runs through. The worst being one without flanges on the central set, it's the huge roller
that you're left with that's dong the damage. I shall taper away to reduce width on the inside at
the external circumference. I also may need to de-solder the switch rail and move slightly.

Unless you are more interested in looks than reliability I'd suggest you stay with Peco code 75 !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:35 am

You are right about looks-v-reliability, the Peco points have a higher likelihood of consistency, than the basically handmade Marcway points. A good dose of pragmatism needs to go into any multi-purpose/multi-user layout. At the end of the day the viewers who may be delighted by appearance are also going to be the strongest critics of performance. It's one of those choices you can't win.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Dad-1
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:14 pm

I keep flitting about between my Workbench and this layout thread.
At the moment both are closely entwined and hence the current picture.

Image

Nothing spectacular, Just a Ratio Toad kit, but this one shows the
Weymouth allocation. I have never seen a 'Weymouth' decal anywhere
and in typical pedantic modeller style that's what I wanted !!
This has been made up from individual letters cut from the HMRS GW
wagons decal sheet. I butchered Wolverhampton & Shrewsbury to get all
the required letters. It would have been easier if HMRS hadn't varied font
sizes so much, I mean, Plymouth would just have needed a W & E in front,
but they had varied font size as was the historical case !!

Weymouth had 114740; 114742; 114906; and 114907 (AA19's) I chose No.42
as that was my year of birth !! 1942 .............

Oh and I've needed to fix the running board, taken a knock as I worked, but
O.K now.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dave
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Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dave » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:25 pm

Geoff,

Your attention to detail astounds me. Cracking job with the decals, there certainly won't be another one around like it.

Whilst you beaver away rattling through projects, my lack of progress is embarrassing :oops:

Dad-1
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:54 pm

Ahh Dave, but we'll appreciate it when you do start rolling again.

The unequal fight continues with Kadees. It's a fact that they are not
good bed-fellows with British outline '00' wagons. In fact I'd say they are
an expensive failure.

Too much magnet ?
Not really as they don't all pull into the free shunting mode.
However a slow speeds (as wanted) some, Just some, uncouple when passing over.
Too free running perhaps, not really as even 'braked' wagons uncouple at unwanted times.
Brakes not on enough ? On a 6 wheel milktank the braked axle set locked at times !!

Reduce the magnet and there will be no free shunt mode and West Bay must have that
to operate the yard. We also HAVE to work with single wagons because of space limitations.

The 'Kings Clothes' always comes to mind. However they DO work with a couple of coaches.
Certainly not for British wagons. The video a few postings back of shunting on out HS-2
layout works fine BUT it has no requirement for free shunting .................

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
Posts: 5540
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:41 pm

After sitting here for about 10 days I've at last got around to
fitting the Lenz silver mini 6 pin decoder in the Heljan 1363
saddle tank.
I do wish Heljan didn't use such thick claggy grease. It gives
quiet running, but all the axles are stiff with grease and don't
move freely. The result was iffy performance over insulated
points, half stalls before the wheels can drop slightly to keep
electrical continuity.
It's going to need many hours of running-in !!

Image

Image

Being run-in on St Oval in my garage where the odd half-hours
work is easy, can't do that on West Bay, being end-to-end.

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dave
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Location: Up North

Re: West Bay Bridport - Club Layout

Postby Dave » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:28 pm

St Oval to the rescue once again...

Worth its weight in gold 8)


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