HS II - The Kadee Experiments

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Dave
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dave » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:50 pm

I still think, but am happy to be proved wrong, that the problem is with too much magnet rather than too much metal. I am sure lots of people use KDs without resorting to changing to plastic wheels and removing metal weights.

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SR/ScR Fan
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby SR/ScR Fan » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:05 pm

Hi Dave and Geoff,

I still have many plastic wheeled boxcars and suffer no problems. I have changed wheel sets that have magnetic axles and plastic wheels. You may be correct on too much magnet as the magnet should not attract the wagon.

That said, I use the Kadee 321 (between the rails) so they aren't stupidly powerful. I have only used under the rail once before (Bachmann) and I wouldn't use them again.

They require far too much fettling. Perfect level track, superb controller control etc. The between the rail, whilst not as visually pleasing, do work much better as they follow the track.

Rob

Dad-1
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:56 pm

Hi Guys, All help stored away for future developments !!

It's easy to say it's too much magnet, but to get reliable strong movement that's what it needs.
In fact I had a couple of couplings that simply didn't move as freely as others I used to replace
them. I've also had 2, one each in different packets where the knuckle springs had fallen out.

We decided we didn't like the between track magnets and they've been placed in the 'spares'
bin. I'm now certain that I can get the level of operation I want, but to achieve that I must
prevent wagon creep where interacting with those under-board magnets. Certainly the 3 bauxite
wagons on plastic wheel-sets behave perfectly. One Bachmann wagon with a brake on both axles
provided by a sprung length of thin phosphor-bronze woks well as did another with foam pad brakes.
It's my intention to add brakes for any that I can't find the suitable Hornby plastic wheels on non-
magnetic steel axle replacements.

I think our requirement is quite extreme. We need to drop wagons reliably in a 1.0 cm window. Not
just once, but over 3 different magnets, every few seconds, up to 15 times without a single failure.
We will be running DCC, probably mainly a Digitrax system. It is our intention to have a built-in
spirt-level on the layout which has already been fitted with adjustable feet. I also intend opening
the Back-to-Back measurements to the widest we can to reduce the slack of a wagon moving off
the exact centre-line of our magnets.

SR/ScR Fan is right it will require much fettling, adjustment and minor modification as we go along.
Having said that on some recent testing with the dedicated Midland 1F it looked like we'll get there.
Who ever though a 4 oz Dapol coal wagon would roll far too easily !!

All good fun, problems are there to solve - how reliable we can make it for general operating is
something we'd prefer not to thing about too much at the stage of development.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:44 pm

Geoff, for magnetic operation of tension lock the two magnets are buried on the centre line about three sleepers apart. How close together are the magnetic tails of the Kadees. The between the rails magnets are quite long. Which way does the polarity run? If it's crossways you may need to ensure that your two magnets are opposite poles upward, which should neutralise the field at any distance. The old inverse square law and all that. My only experience of moving couplers sideways was with Peco metal ones which needed to be over the same pole, then they repelled each other. If they had been engineered as well as the Kadees everyone wouldn't have welcomed tension lock. Fitted to a free running wagon you always ended up pinning it against the buffers before they would couple.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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Dad-1
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi John,

The Kadees are working better now I realise the accuracy required in
having the magnetic tails running over dead centre of the magnets.
The lateral accuracy required is very high and while I can now get close
to 100% uncoupling, I've still not managed 100% on the un-coupled push
back. Some of that seems to be slightly 'sticky' Kadee knuckle heads that
pull apart enough to un-couple, but not that fraction further to get into
the non-coupling position. Kadee supply a dry lubricant - so a known problem ?

Now I'm happy enough for us to cut magnet holes in the layout proper.
This piece has been a test board on which I've had to learn all the likes
and dis-likes of the system. We demand good reliable operation.

It's been more fun though just painting and playing around with wagons !!

Part painted 5 plank as seen earlier with 'stretcher' to bow the sides. This
wagon weighs 4 ozs !!

Image

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Ironduke
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Ironduke » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:19 am

Bufferstop wrote:Which way does the polarity run? If it's crossways..


Yes, it's Crossways. See https://kadee.com/htmbord/page309.htm
Regards
Rob

Dad-1
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:26 pm

Perhaps I'm over my 100 day virus ..... after 120 days, or more !!
Feeling rough not the only reason this has been sitting pending further
work. The layout varies between Derek's place and mine and recently
been residing over the valley.
I've got back and have wired in droppers off every piece of rail, the shortest
just 6 sleepers long, as well as off both point stock rails. We have the frog
polarity wires currently taped over underneath as we may well try to run without
switched frog power, just relying on switch blade contact. However if this should
prove unsatisfactory we can easily add switching without lifting track.

Testing the final track layout and location, we will need to do some fine adjustment
to wagon Kadees as we are still having trouble getting the non-coupling shunting
to function reliably. Dropping and picking up wagons no problem.

Image

Just off the end of the works loading platform we have a coal drop where hopper
discharge can deposit directly into the boiler room cellar.

Image

About to add balsa wood to raise the ground level to, or above sleeper height in much
of the yard area, no fancy main line ballasting needed here, ash & clinker upto and
above sleepers !!

We already have the elevated roadway with two separate under routes, one for rail, the
other a roadway ...... but that's over the valley at Derek's. Now we're looking at what
buildings we make to fill the scene.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:35 pm

What I don't seem to have shown is the 'Box' that is the layout. This has a back scene space
with a double fold lid that will fully enclose for storage & transportation.
Here it is lid down !!

Image

It's this sort of design that results in a slow build !!

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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TimberSurf
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:36 pm

That's a very impressive coffin!
But not as impressive as the doll's house! :o :D
Image
Lumsdonia <--- Hit link to go to my website for full story and wiring advice!

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Dave
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dave » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:32 pm

Dad-1 wrote:We have the frog polarity wires currently taped over underneath as we may well try to run without switched frog power, just relying on switch blade contact. However if this should prove unsatisfactory we can easily add switching without lifting track.

Off the top of my head...

Do you not have to snip the two link wires underneath the points to convert them to switched frog :?: I may be getting confused, as I bond the switch rail to the running rail on mine.

Dad-1
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:34 pm

Hi Dave,

yes you do, but these fine stainless wires are across a manufacturers rail gap.
All you need is a very fine razor saw that will go into the existing gap and saw
through the link wire. This will then isolate the frog area from switch blades.
Then just attach the trailing wire we have taped under the board into a power
bus fed polarity switch.
We want to run without switching as it's our intention to operate the two points
by a home made manual rod mechanism.

I'm finding the Kadees a little 'sticky' and have tonight ordered some Kadee dry
graphite lubricant. At the moment they prefer a jerky change of direction and
I want to do gently at low .... very low speed.

Back to play shunting, maximum track for 11 wagons, we have 9 on the layout.
The headshunt will take just 4 and this is where the loco is attached to the train,
5 wagons sit by the works platform, and 3 in each of the other two sidings. with
spare space for two just wagons it can be laborously difficult. But then I like shunting

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:31 am

Going along better now .....

Last evening I painted all the track, do you remember that prat that was insistent that it looked fine
without painting and then lectured us all on how HIS building work was superior to everyone else ?
Ahh those were the days !!
I also managed to uncouple and then loose shunt wagons, yet the train stayed together when pulled
out over the magnets. Being rather pleased I then laid some fine ballast over the white plastic magnet
covers to hide their whereabouts, as when used by club members on Tuesday the locations were so
obvious the drivers were just about managing. Having said that clipped in stop blocks - Bufferstops
were shunted off the end !! Next time we allow some inexperienced drivers they will be pinned and
glued down !

Sorry no photos, but Photobucket was being such a pain last evening I gave up.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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m.levin
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Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby m.levin » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:01 pm

Dad-1 wrote:Going along better now .....

Last evening I painted all the track, do you remember that prat that was insistent that it looked fine
without painting and then lectured us all on how HIS building work was superior to everyone else ?
Ahh those were the days !!

Geoff T.


Seen so many of those types come and go, then return again :lol:

Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:51 pm

he he, not this one martin - Permanent Ban ......

Anyway I got into P.B and here is a picture, I've forgotten exactly what it was to show, other than my
wiring with a dropper to EVERY piece of track including one 6 sleepers long.

Image

Then here it was showing the two vacant places that have to be used to shuffle into the exact sequence
required. We will have a card draw to decide what will have to go where, but that's for later.

Image

Now this is the latest 'fancy' idea. We are using welding rod to activate the points and the 'lever' will be
a road vehicle resting on it's wheels that you just move back & forth as required. I used a petrol pump
on Castell Mawr and it works fine, but a little too much friction for my liking during movement. Here
the vehicle wheels will take the load. You only need between 3.5 - 4.0 mm of movement to change the
points.

Image

That's my love trying new ideas that I've not seen done before, mind you I bet others have done this at
sometime.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
Posts: 5471
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: HS II - The Kadee Experiments

Postby Dad-1 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:23 pm

That last picture may not have explained the welding rod point change system
we're using on this layout. Here is a picture with the supporting braces in place
on the underside. The supports are split so the rodding is user friendly and can
be stripped out and, or serviced as may be required in the future.

Image

A sad fact, but I decided to use some old screw stock from the 1990's and although
they were of the type and diameter I wanted they were too long. Well, a slitting disc
will remove the unwanted protrusion that will be destined to be hidden under ballast
anyway.
Note these points have had their tie-bars cut back as it really spoils the look of them.
It's not a problem for the future as I never expect to strip this down to re-use and
even if I did they would be automated in such a way that I wouldn't need the unsightly
protrusions.

Image

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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