St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

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Bufferstop
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:26 pm

It did stick a little on some pointwork if I went slowly but sometimes just got caught for a split second then jumped back into life and carried on.

This is a common problem with 4 wheelers, this is what happens - the loco is proceeding towards the frog (usually on the straight track}. the leading wheel approaching the frog drops into the oversized gap of the flange way. This reduces the contact pressure between the diagonally opposite wheel and the rail, leaving only the leading wheel on the stock rail to pick up current on that side. The loss of traction causes the loco to rock back remaking or improving contact sufficient to start moving again.
Things which will improve the situation -
- ensure as much weight as possible is within the wheelbase, not difficult on a side tank engine.
- check that all four wheels sit on the track, I stand the loco on a piece of plate glass (a scratched photocopier platen glass) and check for wobble. As platen glasses are hard to come by you can use a scanner's glass but put a sheet of paper on it to prevent scratching.
- thoroughly clean the wheels and ensure the pickups stay in contact when the wheel is moved side to side.
- ensure that the rail and frog surfaces through the point are level, insulforgs in particular but all plastic sleepered points seem to have a tendency to "dome" at the frog and require extra pinning to keep them flat.
- add a shim to the bottom of the flangeway to support the wheel as it crosses, providing this does not cause a problem for locos with a deeper flange. I doubt you'll have any deeper than a Hornby 0-4-0, unless it's an even older Triang/Triang Hornby 0-4-0
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Thanks Bufferstop. I will go through each one by one
- ensure as much weight as possible is within the wheelbase, not difficult on a side tank engine.

With the added lead the loco now weights 100g. Quite hefty for a little loco.
- check that all four wheels sit on the track, I stand the loco on a piece of plate glass (a scratched photocopier platen glass) and check for wobble. As platen glasses are hard to come by you can use a scanner's glass but put a sheet of paper on it to prevent scratching.

Yes that seems ok.
- thoroughly clean the wheels and ensure the pickups stay in contact when the wheel is moved side to side.

I've cleaned the wheels and yes the pick ups do indeed stay in contact with the wheelbacks.
- ensure that the rail and frog surfaces through the point are level, insulforgs in particular but all plastic sleepered points seem to have a tendency to "dome" at the frog and require extra pinning to keep them flat.

No they seem all tickty-boo, nice and flat.
- add a shim to the bottom of the flangeway to support the wheel as it crosses, providing this does not cause a problem for locos with a deeper flange. I doubt you'll have any deeper than a Hornby 0-4-0, unless it's an even older Triang/Triang Hornby 0-4-0

Could you possibly provide a rough sketch please Bufferstop as I don't quite understand what to use and where to place it. :?

In other news.....I ordered 2 sets of Hornby spare wheels, spoked and solid. The Spoked ones were ordered form Malta and arrived today but no sign of the UK ordered solid wheels as yet.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:46 pm

The solid larger 14mm wheels arrived yesterday so I removed the 12mm wheels I added the to Intercity coaches.
I didn't remove the pick up springs from them as I have enough left to add to the 14mm wheels and thought that as most other things use the 12mm wheels I could repurpose them somewhere else.
I have added the pick up springs to the new 14mm wheels but am yet to paint on the conductive paint.
I have stalled as I am thinking wether to add 2 pick up springs at each end (both wheelsets rather than one single wheelset), how they will be connected and wether to make each bogie seperate polarity or dual polarity.
As in, should each bogie pick up both negative and positive power or a single bogie picking up negative and a single bogie picking up positive.
Obviously either way, only one wheelset will pick up a single polarity.

What would the consensus be on this please?


Also while perusing the bay the other day I thought about how many insulated fishplates I have and it's definatly not enough to complete the layout so I managed to find a sale of 2 unopened packs for best offer which I won for £5 including delivery. The cheapest single pack on the bay was £2.80 so it was a no brainer and they arrived today.

I also changed a set of spoked wheels from plastic to metal on one of my Bachmann English China Clays wagon from the new wheels I bought, keeping to the "no plastic wheels" advice.

Half the track still needs cleaning but I can happily shunt around on the front tracks. I only have 3 small loco's out at the moment and some freight stock but this all worked brilliantly for the children who visited over the holidays and had a play. :D
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:09 pm

There are two factors on carriages. If DC or DCC, then adding extra pickups will improve dirty track/insulated points. On DCC, no problem, but on DC, adding pick ups on both ends will "bridge" isolated sections. If using more than one controller, may cause faults, if sitting over isolated siding, might re-energise a loco. In either case, adding a stay alive circuit would negate having to fit at both ends.

The two options amount to the same thing, two wheels that are the same polarity can bridge isolated sections, the same as a loco with several pickups, but if both wheels on one bogie are the same, the distance is short (less than a loco), if same polarity is on two bogies, the bridging distance is huge!

Do DCC is OK, but saves pickups if stay alive fitted, on DC problematical, so stayalive is by far the better option and inherently extends lighting period while train stopped (not an issue on DCC)
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:17 pm

I am running DCC with one controller and no isolated sections.
I have added 5 25V 220Uf 6mm x 12mm electrolytic capacitors for the stay alive part of the circuit so maybe that will negate the need for 4 live axles?
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:47 pm

End2end wrote:I have added 5 25V 220Uf 6mm x 12mm electrolytic capacitors for the stay alive part of the circuit so maybe that will negate the need for 4 live axles?
End2end

Absolutely! Other than sitting still on a dirty rail, you should have no problems. Just like stay alive for loco's, short breaks of no power over points and dirt will not even be noticed.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:03 pm

Excellent. That means I can use less pick up springs and add lighting to more coaches. :D
Thanks Timbersurf.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:35 am

I have an idea for my hidden sidings but not sure how to go about it.
I will be using SEEP PM1's on the points in the rear hidden sidings and I am thinking of using electrofrog points to make the sidings more reliable.
Can a SEEP point motor power both the frog AND a green or red LED on the control panel at the same time showing which way the point is thrown?
And can anyone tell me what the part numbers are for the Peco electrofrog points I need please?

Here's the original rough plan for the hidden sidings using all Peco setrack and insulfrog points except for the 2 crossovers which are Hornby.
If there is room on the rear baseboard there may even be space for more sidings. :)
UltimatePlusNoXoverREARsm.jpg


Also, I don't know if this is possible due to having to use the Hornby crossovers but I have Peco setrack curves at each end of the layout giving me 2 long setrack loops in 2nd and 3rd radius.
If I was to use electrofrog points in the rear hidden sidings with the closer non-setrack track spacing (I'm not sure of the correct term/name) how would I go about easily connecting the setrack curves to the narrower track spacing of the hidden sidings with the electrofrog points?
Would a small setrack straight installed half way round the 2nd radius 180 degree bend make the 2nd radius curve long enough to then come closer together with the 3rd radius to fit the narrower track spacing once it hits the striaght track?.
Is there a Peco setrack straight part number that can do this and are there crossovers available from Peco that can cross tracks at the narrower non-setrack spacing?
I was going to do a mock up of the loops in Scarm but not knowing the correct part numbers for the correct electrofrog points I'm lost.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:38 am

Regarding the SEEP motor powering both the frog and signals the answer is yes, I'm running dcc and have connected up light signals directly to the electrofrog points. There is an excellent diagram on Brian Lamberts (Flashbang) website, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll have another look and post the link when I find it.

Dave

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:42 am

Got it now, scroll down the page almost to the bottom, it is very straightforward and it does work.

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC2.html

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:38 am

Thanks for the info Dave. :)
I knew I could power the mimic panel LED's from the track/DCC supply but is it possible to run the mimic panel LED's from the SEEP if one of the solder pads is already used up by being connected to the electrofrog switching wire?

The reason being, as I only have the Bachmann starter DCC controller I was trying to keep as much of the DCC power for running trains as I am already syphoning off some of the DCC power for train lighting that I have installed.
Adding all the LED's (2 per point) I want for the mimic panel, I'd rather not use up the DCC current available and thus run out of power to run trains. :?
I don't have a DCC booster so think I only have around 1amp to play with and thus the reason to run the mimic panel LED's from a seperate power supply.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:04 pm

Hi E2E
Probably best to ask on the electronics forum, but I'm pretty sure it will be OK. When you connect the track to the seep terminals to power the frog the same connections are used to connect the led's. It's difficult to explain, especially as I'm a novice with electrics, the diagram on Brian lamberts explains it much better.. I played with a couple of loose led's before wiring the light signals to get a better understanding. Regarding the 1 amp power it shouldn't be a problem regarding led's as they use minimal power, but again probably worth checking with our experts on the electronics thread.

Dave

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:05 am

heda wrote:I played with a couple of loose led's before wiring the light signals to get a better understanding. Dave

Hold the phone!!
I am yet to even start thinking about actual signalling on the layout but by your description I can just wire my physical signals to the points and they will light according to which way the point is thrown?
I don't mean my mimic panel LED's but the actual signalling on the layout.
Does this sound correct?

I always wondered how this could be done easily and work properly thinking the signals would have to be joined to some sort of wiring mess. :?
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Hi E2E
The short answer is yes, but as I said I'm no electrics expert so hard for me to explain, I'l do my best. When you buy two colour light signals they will have 3 wires, 2 with resistors and one without. The wires with resistors are connected to the rails the wire without the resistor is connected to the frog. When the points are thrown the frog changes polarity and one or the other led's light.
It is as simple as that, but I would suggest checking out the link to Brian Lambert or ask the question on the electronics forum where on of the experts can explain better.
Hope this helps, Dave

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:54 pm

Well I have finally finished the last baseboard. It came already made but with only a few screws holding the top on around the edge. Now I have screwed it more securely, including to the noggins. There wasn't space in the room before to do it. This baseboard alone is 8 feet long. :shock: :lol:

There's next to nothing more I can do at the moment until I have enough in the budget to buy the next items I need to add legs with adjustable feet and componants to hold all the boards together, I've even tidied and hoovered :o but hopefully it won't take too long to raise the funds I need.
Then once all bolted together I can begin to lay track again.

On the subject of baseboard joining, my floor is a bit uneven and although the adjustable feet will solve this, how do you actually get 4 boards (in a square O shape with an operators hole in the middle of the boards) to sit exactly level with each other and across the layout as a whole?

I had the idea to take the boards outside so I have space and clamp 2 boards together, drill the siting/connecting bolts so they are exactly flush to each other for connection, but the actual levelling of all four boards once stood on thier legs is what I need to know.
Thanks
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