St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

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dan8400
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby dan8400 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:34 pm

Sorry to hear of your electrical gremlins.

The pasty shop looks great. I really like the interior detail and lighting.

Nice work.

Thanks
Dan
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End2end
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:17 pm

Well after 2 emails to Signa-trak and no reply I called today and left a message, hoping I can just re-flash the controller myself.
In the meantime I have been collecting a few more kits to build but the weather outside has not been good enough to spray the undercoat layers.
Gaugemaster Fordhampton GM483 Church Kit and GM408 Village stores / Pub (which is basically the same as Hornby's R487 Monkton Post Office kit) and Wills SS12 Station Garage, SS30 Barn and SS31 Forge kits.

And... I must get my Inn finished! :lol:
That lot plus life in general should keep me busy while I cannot run trains.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:58 pm

It seems the phone message did the trick and I got a call a few minutes ago from Frasier of Signa-Trak. :)
I mentioned that the firmware manual was missing from the website and will be uploaded to the site.
Although, stupid me :roll: , there's a paper copy of it in my controller box that comes with the controller. Frasier did say he would send me a copy before I went to check but it wasn't needed.
We had a chat about my predicament and he even said he could possibly visit to see what was happening but I have a couple more avenues of investigation I want to try before that would be necessary.

Once I have the time to sit and concentrate on it, I will give the controller firmware install a try.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:57 pm

I may have found the short circuit but seek some advice.
I'm not sure if this is the correct way insulfrog points work but I am getting a short when testing the point.
I've taken some pictures to show when the short occurs.
Is this correct or is this point actually broken?

Please pay particular attention to where the croc clips are connected and which way the point is thrown in each picture.
1.JPG

2.JPG

3.JPG

4.JPG

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Bufferstop
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:04 pm

That's behaving like an electrofrog point, it shouldn't! The two sides of the V appear to be connected, they shouldn't be they ought to be connected just to their own switch rail. I've come across ones like this, I investigated as far as I could without destroying them and concluded that the two points of the V were actually touching inside the insulation, so I wired them as though they were electrofrog.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:13 pm

So do you think this could be the cause of my short circuit Bufferstop?
If so I'll just replace the point.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:30 pm

If this is on a DCC layout and you have power feeds on all of the rails connected to it, you have a permanent short circuit. You could prove it, IRJ's on both V rails and slips of card between the blades and the stock rails and check for a connection between the two blades, there shouldn't be one. If you have a spare you can substitute would be best. I converted my old set track points to electrofrog by grinding out some of the plastic at the point of the V and filling it with solder, but I wouldn't recommend it for DCC as the curvature causes wheel backs to short against the open blade. Mine used to spark the cut out on my DC controller was nowhere near as sensitive as a DCC one.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:54 pm

Yes, it was installed on the layout until today with IRJ's on all V rails.
Diverted track on the point connected to another facing point, toe of point and straight ahead tracks connected to straights.
No short circuit found on the facing point (Due to 2 IRJ's installed between the 2 points so they are isolated anyway and wouldn't carry any short circuit across to the facing point)

What I am trying to figure out is if insulfrog points should have this short circuit as shown when new or whether this is actually a broken point and replacing it could solve my layout short circuit.
Once I split the track into separate districts I found the area where the short was occurring and narrowed it down to what I think is this point.
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heda
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:46 am

I think that is an electrofrog point.

Dave

http://www.brunelhobbies.com.au/PECO/pe ... rofrog.htm

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Bufferstop
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 am

heda wrote:I think that is an electrofrog point.

Dave

http://www.brunelhobbies.com.au/PECO/pe ... rofrog.htm


I'd agree except that it is on a setrack sleeper base and setrack doesn't have an electrofrog version. I modified a load of setrack points to live frogs, it's woth doing on the Peco ones because the dead zone is so short and doesn't require much butchery to do. Hornby are more difficult as you have to insert some longer bits of rail, it's only really worth trying if you need the setrack geometry.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:09 am

I had a look on the underside of the point but there's no product code on it unfortunately.
I specifically bought insulfrogs so not sure how it could be electrofrog unless a seller that I bought from got it mixed up.
Some were points in peco paper bags rather than the carded packaging but all was bought as "new" or "new and unused".

Again, I'll just reiterate, the layout was working fine before installing the seeps.
I did so many tests yesterday and I think, once this point was removed I lost he short circuit on the layout.
I will check again to make sure that's 100% correct.
Bad memory in play here. :lol:

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heda
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby heda » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:35 am

E2E Post a picture of the underside that might make it clearer.
Do other manufacturers make electrofrog points ?
At least you have located the problem, I would think if your using that point regard it as electrofrog, use irj's on the V rails.
Dave

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:34 pm

heda wrote:I would think if your using that point regard it as electrofrog, use irj's on the V rails.


Just a quick response as I'm in the middle of something right now. :wink:
Will do on the picture front and the V rails do have IRJ's on them. All my points do.
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MrH
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby MrH » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:32 pm

The extra tests I would do with the meter which you haven’t shown (but may have done is-

1)have the switch rails not connecting to either side
2)test the two ends of the v Rather than the outer rails
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Postby End2end » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:45 pm

Thanks MrH. I'll add it to the to-do list.
There's much on it today. :lol:
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