Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Discussion of N gauge model railway specific products and related model railway topics (problems and solutions). (Graham Farish, Dapol, Peco)
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klaatu
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby klaatu » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:53 pm

Prompted by this thread, earlier today I ordered one of these, without taking any notice of the size:

http://www.nairnshire-modelling-supplies.co.uk/back-to-back-gauge-for-n-gauge-p-244.html

It says it's 7.24mm. All of my stock is recent; does that mean I've bought the wrong gauge?

Steve
Just playing trains - not a "proper modeller"

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Karhedron
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby Karhedron » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:34 pm

The back-to-back refers to the distance between the inside faces of the wheels so would be expected to be less than the track gauge by the thickness of the wheel flanges.

In short, I think you have bought the right thing.
To an optimist, a glass is half-full.
To a pessimist, a glass is half-empty.
To an engineer, the glass is twice as big as necessary.

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:40 pm

Good that means i've bought the right thing also!

m8internet
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby m8internet » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:54 pm

I can only find ones that are 7.24mm or 7.25mm
The only other tool I have, at the moment, is a metal ruler marked in 1mm markings

Will wait until the N gauge show and see what can be found (ever growing list for this year)
Glasgow Queen Street Model Railway layout : modern image N gauge using DCC

EtchedPixels
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby EtchedPixels » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:36 pm

In my experience 7.25 will cause problems with anything but ye olde Peco trackwork.

However having an old style 7.25mm one isn't a problem because all you need to do is set axles against the gauge and a 0.15-0.25mm piece of plasticard or scrap of some sort. Much cheaper than a new gauge.

Unfortunately it seems that almost all the UK N gauge back to back gauges are actually made by one company and resold by everyone else.

Alan

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:58 pm

Got the loco back from Hattons today, they found no fault with it....

Will test later and let you know the results.......

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:38 am

Arrgh.

Exactly the same, if not worse. Now it stalls on bends (4th Radius / ST19 Setrack). It also now struggles to pull 5x mk3 coaches and a DVT more than a couple of inches. Just wheel spins.

I have 2x Dapol 153's, 1 Farish 57, 1 Farish 91, 1 Dapol 67. 1 Farish 220, 5x mk3 coaches (have lights so collect current from track). None of these have a problem traversing points. Likewise the above loco's have no problems pulling a rake of coaches either.

Keep you updated. Must be something unique to my layout as shop said test ok, but then all my track is Setrack and only about 4 months old.

Grahame
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby Grahame » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:11 am

To be fair setrack points are hardly the best for good running; they're insulfrog and very tight radius. And I've read reports that class 66s don't like such tight bends. You might be better off relaying with elelctro-frog points and more generous bends.

However, your best bet is to test everything about the loco yourself first. Has the loco been oiled and run in properly on it's own? Put the loco upside down in a cradle and using live wires to touch pairs of wheels check that each set picks up and runs the motor. Then twist each bogie to it's max deflection (as if it's on a bend) and test/check again. Try running on straight track; is that okay? Will it pull your coaches on straight track? Are your coaches/stock free running or is there a lot of drag on their wheels? Check/test on various bends. Etc.

G.

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:23 am

If I buy something I expect it to work to my purpose. Though very valid I do not think relaying the layout due to one loco not running (when all the others work fine) is the answer.

Let's remember the radius of the points is not relevant as it shorts when they are not set. If the points are set it actually doesnt short. I cant run the loco in as it doesnt run. I have oiled it as per the manufacturers instructions with the correct lubricant, as per all my other loco's.

I am sure its something unique between the combination of the loco and track dont know what though. My whole layout is Setrack (so not "funny" flexitrack configuration). The whole layout is layed on Gaugemaster Ballasted Foam. The points are all fairly new (not motorised). The layout is DCC but above abnormalities occur with or without the decoder.

The coaches it wheel spins when on the ST19 (4th Rad bends). The coaches are free wheeling, remembering they do have contacts on each axel as they are Dapol DCC enabled Mk3's for illumination so perhaps a little bit of resistance. Again none of the others struggle, even the Dapol class 153 can tug them along!

Thanks for the tips, I think prob best cut my losses with this one and avoid 66's. I have a Farish 57 with similar boogies (3 axels per boogie) and this has no problems at all.

Grahame
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby Grahame » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:43 am

[qifop] wrote:Let's remember the radius of the points is not relevant as it shorts when they are not set. If the points are set it actually doesnt short. I cant run the loco in as it doesnt run. I have oiled it as per the manufacturers instructions with the correct lubricant, as per all my other loco's.


You have reported it doesn't like certain bends so radius could well be an issue or contributary factor. Also I'm not sure what you mean by the points being 'not set'. That sounds more like a layout wiring issue. Are you trying to run the loco through the points wrongly set and expect it to push the blades open?

You need to check and test for everything to narrow down the real cause of the issue. Then you'll be able to rectify that. Don't just assume it's the fault of the loco especially if it's been tested by the supplier and runs okay in certain circumstances on your layout. It may be just the loco, but it sounds more like a combination factor cause that you need to address. Also don't assume that just because your class 57 is okay on your layout that all three axle twin bogie locos will be. The class 66 is a much longer loco meaning the pivot points are wider apart and the bogie wheelbase is probably different. In fact being a longer loco you might find that it straddles any elelctrical section for the point and causes shorting.

Rather than 'cut your losses' I suggest you ought to perservere to find the problem and resolve it. You might well experience it with other new locos you purchase in the future.

G.

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:57 am

Sorry,

I mean, if the train is running straight through the points (not turning off) then it shorts on the one (same) axel. If its turning off the track using the points it does not short. There is no wiring issue. On the basis of that fact its when running straight through the points and not when it experiences the harse radius of the turnout that it shorts I do not see the distance between the axels would make any difference whatsoever or am I missing something? It is only one wheel set on the one boogie that shorts each time. If you turn the loco around and run in reverse the other boogie passes the points fine and then the very same offending axel shorts.

I totally agree its a combination of issues but I need to be realistic, I have several different problems here all only affecting one locomotive and one axel.

The wheel spinning issue perhaps after some investigation yes i could resolve, but the aformentioned issue is more of a concern.

I have the weekend now to tinker so will see what i can work out. I am just at a loss as to why it would work ok when tested by the shop, especially as it wont pass any points on my layout nor will it pass some i have lying around on the kitchen work surface.

Unless anyone lives local to Heathrow on here with an N layout want to borrow it and test??

Grahame
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby Grahame » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:24 pm

[qifop] wrote:I mean, if the train is running straight through the points (not turning off) then it shorts on the one (same) axel. If its turning off the track using the points it does not short.


Quite honestly if the loco runs through the points one way okay, but doesn't when the points are set to the other route, that sounds more like the points are the issue (possibly in combination with the loco). Does it only happen on one set of points or does it happen on all your points? And what makes you think it is only one wheelset/axle? What does it short on? If you turn the loco around does it still happen?

G.

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:31 pm

Hi, all 7 sets of points. When running straight through. If they are set to another route (turn off) its ok. It is always the same axel in the same boogie.

I know its this as if you run the train over a set of points, as the wheel in question meets the frog you see the spark come off the bottom of the wheel. A picture would be best. But if you imagine, Basically the wheel acts as a conductor between the right hand rail of the line and the left hand rail of the turn out. Its like the wheel is too far over so its bridging the gap past where the plastic isolating section is on the frog.

Make sense? I will try and take a pic later and show you. Its most odd. I agree as the shop have tested it sounds like the points but im sure you can understand where my question is as I have so many other items of stock that run over them fine, and its not just one set of points either. Its all of them.

When the train runs the other way the leading boogie passes the point work fine and its only when this one particular wheel meets the frog as described above that again we get the spark and the layout shuts down.

Grahame
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby Grahame » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Have you checked and corrected the Back to back on that wheelset as suggested earlier in this thread? The frog and the check rails are plastic on setrack points so what does it connect with?

G.

[qifop]
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Re: Dapol Class 66 (new tooling version)

Postby [qifop] » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:12 pm

The model shop assured me they checked this and its correct.....

If you look at the pic below that I aquired from google images, in the pink box, the wheel when running straight through is overhanging the rail to the degree it shorts with the left hand rail of the turn out route.

Image


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