Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Discussion of N gauge model railway specific products and related model railway topics (problems and solutions). (Graham Farish, Dapol, Peco)
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Karhedron
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Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Karhedron » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:10 pm

Yet another item rattled off my UFO pile. I have just finished repainting a pair of Dapol B-set coaches into early BR unlined crimson. It has always struck me as odd that neither the B-set nor autocoach have ever been offered in this livery despite it being standard and remaining common into the 60s.

The repainting was not too hard as the bodyshell detaches and the glazing pops out without too much effort (wouldn't like to do the same job on the Farish suburbans).

The only tricky part was renumbering for which I used a set of Modelmaster transfers. B-set coaches usually ran in pairs and the majority of pairs were "married for life". This being the case, it is pretty annoying that the MM transfer sheet includes some B-set numbers but not for matching pairs. After an aggravating hour with a magnifying glass I eventually settled for cutting up numbers to get a set that was allocated to the Bristol sub-division. This aside I am really pleased with how well they turned out and you can see the results here.

Image

Regards, Matt
Last edited by Karhedron on Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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To a pessimist, a glass is half-empty.
To an engineer, the glass is twice as big as necessary.

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silentwake
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby silentwake » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:12 pm

They look great!

locoworks
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby locoworks » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:39 pm

yeah, nice work.

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storme37
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby storme37 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:50 pm

very nice did you spray them?

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Karhedron
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Karhedron » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:27 pm

I did indeed. I sprayed them with Vauxhaul "Carmine Red" courtesy of Halfords. ;)

I find car spray paints much more reliable and consistent than those sold specifically for railway modellers. Better value too. For anyone who wants to try them, the Gauge 0 Guild put this list together a few years back.

Any roof grey Halford's plastic bumper
MR/LMS/BR Maroon Rover damask red
GWR/BR loco green Rover Brooklands green
GWR/BR loco green Ford laurel green
BR diesel light green band Ford highland green
BR coach carmine Vauxhall Carmine Red
BR coach cream Vauxhall gazelle beige
BR coach cream (well worn) Peugeot antelope beige
BR diesel blue VW Pargas blue
BR steam loco blue Peugeot royal blue
BR loco yellow warning panel Vauxhall mustard yellow
LNER garter blue/BR diesel blue, but slightly more blue Ford fjord blue, less green
LNER garter blue VW Pargas blue
LMS Coronation Blue Rover Pageant mid-blue
Stanier Coronation blue Peugeot royal blue
GWR or Pullman coach brown Rover russet brown
GWR coach cream Rover Primula yellow
SR dark olive green Land Rover Coniston green
LNWR/LYR coach plum lower panels Daewoo dark red
LNWR coach bluey-white upper panels Daewoo Casablanca white
CR steam loco Peugeot royal blue
SDJR blue Rover midnight blue
CR dark blue Rover midnight blue
Stroudley LBSCR ochre BMC tan
LBSCR umber Vauxhall Brazil brown
N.Staffs maroon Vauxhall Gambia red
NER coach red Vauxhall Gambia red
LYR coach upper panels Plastikote nut brown
To an optimist, a glass is half-full.

To a pessimist, a glass is half-empty.

To an engineer, the glass is twice as big as necessary.

barkfast
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby barkfast » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:01 am

Great work Matt!

It is a little suprising that Dapol hasnt released them in BR crimson considering its a livery change and not a tooling change.
Terry

b308
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby b308 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:07 am

I am a little wary about making a comment about the colour, but after living through the era when they were used in that colour I would say that they were much too "red". BR Maroon was much darker than that. It may be that the photo and the computer has changed the hue, but it definitely looks wrong to me!

Also re that list, I'm surprised at the GOG as its well known that the MR shade of Maroon (or red!) was much lighter than LMS or BR versions so should be a separate colour, as can be seen here, where all three colours are given a different code!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... t#Big_four

Grahame
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Grahame » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:26 pm

b308 wrote: after living through the era when they were used in that colour I would say that they were much too "red". BR Maroon was much darker than that. It may be that the photo and the computer has changed the hue, but it definitely looks wrong to me!


I think you're batting on a sticky wicket when trying to compare a colour from memory with one on a computer monitor and claiming which is most accurate or right or wrong. After all what is accurate; we all know that colours change significantly with time (fade due to weathering, etc), viewing distance (scale efect), light (bright sunny day or dull and overcast) and location (reflection from other colours, including amount of sky, around) other factors like undercoat used and finish (varnish, laquer, condition, etc) and, of course, the tricks that ones memory plays. Also the further one goes back in time the technology of paint was less precise (often it had to be mixed on site) and there was a lack of standard colours meaning that it varied from item to item even when viewed under exactly the same conditions.

G.

b308
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby b308 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:06 pm

I would agree that weathering makes things look different, but there's enough photographic evidence and also the actual paint "make up" is recorded for all the three colours we are discussing, and used by the NRM and Preservation Societies, so i don't feel I'm on a sticky wicket at all in this particular case. I believe that even the LMS admitted that their shade was darker than the MR version.

Sometimes its difficult to comment on something without sounding like we're knocking the OP, but in this case i do feel that whilst its a neat paint job, the colour is wrong, and it needs to be highlighted to the OP so he can do some more research... Or even leave it if he likes it, after all its his railway!

REFaust
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby REFaust » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:31 pm

Those are really nice repaints. It is odd that Dapol never released the B-sets in Maroon though.

Perhaps if they do a new batch that's a livery they would consider adding to the roster,

R E Faust

Grahame
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Grahame » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:46 pm

b308 wrote:I would agree that weathering makes things look different, but there's enough photographic evidence and also the actual paint "make up" is recorded for all the three colours we are discussing, and used by the NRM and Preservation Societies, so i don't feel I'm on a sticky wicket at all in this particular case. I believe that even the LMS admitted that their shade was darker than the MR version.


I still think you're on a sticky wicket.

Photographic evidence is inconclusive and not acceptable with regards to accurately determining colour; photographic emulsions fade over time and the process of developing and printing can cause a distinct colour shift/imbalance - for example Kodak tended to favour warm reds and yellow while Fujichrome was towards the blue and green end of the spectrum, let alone the age of the chemicals being used to develop. Making a judgement about something like that, or from memory, in comparison with a colour rendered on a computer monitor is....... :wink:

What people said about a shade being darker than another is only personal comment and opinion and can't be relied on. Hearsay is not really admissible evidence. :wink:

Modern paints used by the NRM and preservation groups are now made from modern polymers and synthetic dyes to a colour standard (like Pantone) and a modern manufacturing process/standard (like BS, ISO etc, requiring it to be VOC free and so on) by the likes of companies such as Phoenix (who supply many preservation railways). However, apparently the original paints used by railways were mixed in the paint shop by local staff to a recipe such as w lbs of white lead, x lbs of pigment A, y lbs of red oxide and z pints of linseed oil. There was no control of the exact proportions, mixing, temperature or even the quality of the ingredients, so the final colour varied from shop to shop (it is accepted that even BR blue varied and those locos painted by Eastleigh are considered to have had a distinct turquoise tinge).

However, it is acceptable for you to think the colour is not right but to me the colour looks more than acceptable. 8)

G.

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Zunnan
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Zunnan » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:57 pm

b308 wrote:I am a little wary about making a comment about the colour, but after living through the era when they were used in that colour I would say that they were much too "red". BR Maroon was much darker than that. It may be that the photo and the computer has changed the hue, but it definitely looks wrong to me!



Sometimes its difficult to comment on something without sounding like we're knocking the OP, but in this case i do feel that whilst its a neat paint job, the colour is wrong, and it needs to be highlighted to the OP so he can do some more research...


They're not Maroon though, they're Crimson, and that Halfords shade a pretty good match for the Crimson that FarBach used on their BR Mk1 suburbans :wink: I'm also quite surprised at Dapol for not releasing this livery given how long they've been producing the B set, I would have thought that more of these coaches wore Crimson than survived to be repainted into Maroon.

Grahame
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby Grahame » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:14 pm

Zunnan wrote:I'm also quite surprised at Dapol for not releasing this livery given how long they've been producing the B set, I would have thought that more of these coaches wore Crimson than survived to be repainted into Maroon.


Yep, but it does seem like an eminently doable upgrade. It should be a nice little project for anyone to undertake and they’ll end up with something a little different from the RTR train set crowd as proven by the OP. 8)

G.

hiffano
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby hiffano » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:27 pm

they look great mate, I also particularly like the colour, though i notice it has 0.062% extra red pigment in than modern standard.. :twisted:
Whoo, new job... big pay cut... but new job! yay

EtchedPixels
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Re: Seeing red: Repainting a Dapol B-set in BR crimson

Postby EtchedPixels » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:42 am

REFaust wrote:Those are really nice repaints. It is odd that Dapol never released the B-sets in Maroon though.

Perhaps if they do a new batch that's a livery they would consider adding to the roster,

R E Faust


They did them in Maroon (NC005/6) just not crimson


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