Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

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lee2017
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Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby lee2017 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:39 pm

Hey just thought I'd introduce myself and some of my ideas.

The time has come where I can finally peruse life long ambition to build a model railroad after managing to make a space of at least 10ft x 8ft square to build in.

I am still at the stage where I find myself spending much time staring at bare walls collecting thoughts and ideas whilst getting slightly confused at the same time. (but in time, with more research and maybe a few hints and tips from here I'm sure I'll find clarity for my ideas.

I really want to model the local railway (Leeds) when steam locos were still around and I'm currently hovering between two ideas for the layout - I think I'm leaning towards perusing idea number one as this is really where my fascination with steam locomotion and local railway history was born, and also whilst a little foggy in places I actually have bits of a back story floating in memory lane that goes with this idea. (How I wish I had have recorded those 'when I was lad on the railways' stories.)

So here's my two ideas that I'm swinging between. but leaning more towards 'when I was a lad on the railway'

'When I was a lad on the railway'
Re-tell my late Step-Grandad's stories of his time on the railways. Most of his stories revolved around his time as a fireman on the black 5. So modeling key locations of his stories Hunslet & Holbeck (Leeds) from an era that I'm guessing will be between 1939-1950's with various engines and rolling stock that he would have come across is something that appeals to me.

'The last years of steam and the introduction of Diesel - Leeds'
This appeals to me as it would be really nice to base my layout on Steam's last breaths in the local railway history and the introduction of Diesel in an attempt re-tell and relive those last days of steam through my layout.

Here are features that I would like to build into either one of the layouts, but as you can see whilst I have two distinct back story ideas for my layout, my thoughts are somewhat vague and in need of much more research, so any tips hints or pointers on either local history or good approaches to starting the journey to model either of the above ideas would be greatly appreciated. :-

- Goods trains & Passenger services (if they existed together in such locations)
- Holbeck Roundhouses
- Leeds Station
- Hunslet Goods Station

- A Mainline
- A Branch-line

Ex-Pat
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Ex-Pat » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:34 pm

Welcome to the Forum lee2017.

I am always interested in seeing prototypes being modelled, but a word of warning - it's very easy to be too ambitious.

Leeds is a very large prototype - even Holbeck roundhouses alone would eat up space – the depot covered a site roughly 800ft by 500ft - equivalent to some 3,200 mm by 2,000 mm in 00 scale (or in "proper" measurements some 10ft 6 inches by 6ft 6 inches).

So you immediately encounter your biggest enemy –space! (My own layout is currently 16ft long but it really needs to be over 50ft long – you really do have to compromise with anything other than a very small prototype.)

I’m not trying to put you off, merely trying to get over the reality message.

I think you need to firstly decide on scale (00 or N etc) and then a firm set of dimensions (does “at least 10ft x 8ft square to build in” mean that is the maximum, or is there much more space available?

Then you need to decide whether you want a continuous layout, or an end to end.

The Internet is a great source of information on old railways, and pointers to sites can be given when you have firmer ideas in mind.

Hope you stick with a prototype location though!

Dad-1
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi Lee,

Welcome to NRM.

Ex-pat has run through some of the practicalities that you'll face, space being the 'killer'
If you have a room remember that anything against a wall over 3 feet away from your
operating edge will be almost impossible to work on, simply out of reach !

Keep away from 1st radius curves, they tend to limit what locomotives you can run
reliably. Also I would suggest Peco streamline live-frog as your points of choice. What
we call Set-Track are far too tight a radius AND are made for 67 mm track separation.
Streamline offer 3 lengths of points with geometry providing for 50 mm track separation.
That smaller gap is nearer prototype and saves space.

Other than that keep thinking and ask questions BEFORE you spend money, it could save
some heartache.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=32187 and Another on viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28436&start=60&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

lee2017
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:09 pm

Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby lee2017 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:53 pm

Thanks guys for the welcome and the 'reality check' :)

I totally understand you're not trying to put me off, this is why I came here as I am very new to this and any advice, 'reality checks' is invaluable for me as someone starting out a project, so thank you for that :)

Despite me saying 'at least' (that was wishful thinking getting the better of me) 10 x 8 is realistic! Any larger is ambitious. The reason I say this is because the layout is going to fit in a purpose bought shed which will be specifically built for the layout and will be erected in a space that I have made in my back yard which a 10 x 8 shed will comfortably fit in. So 10 x 8 is the space I have to work with and it is the space which I have been experimenting with using any-rail.

The layout shed is going to end up being a little haven where I can disappear off to and work on the railway layout for hopefully many years.

As for operating the railroad. I really really do not want it to be a layout, which the trains just tootle around at their own leisure in continuous loops, It has to be operational layout where I can enjoy shunting and managing engines and rolling stock. I'm looking at building a horseshoe baseboard which will run around 3 walls of the shed with the largest width being on the back wall of the shed. In my case with all of the above, I do feel that an end to end layout will suite better than a circuit layout.

'N' gauge or 00. I really want to utilize DCC (hope again I'm not being ambitious), so my my thoughts are that 00 is probably going to have more options available to me. It's also a larger scale, easier on the eyes, and much much more manageable for my larger and clumsy hands. I realise that this is a bit of a compromise as 'N' gauge would not be as space hungry - If anyone has any suggestions regards to scale I am open to any suggestions or tips.

Once again, thanks for your input so far.

Ex-Pat
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Ex-Pat » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:19 pm

lee2017 wrote:
It has to be operational layout where I can enjoy shunting and managing engines and rolling stock. I'm looking at building a horseshoe baseboard which will run around 3 walls of the shed with the largest width being on the back wall of the shed. In my case with all of the above, I do feel that an end to end layout will suite better than a circuit layout.



In that case the next decision to take would be whether you have a station at both ends, or just one station and a fiddle yard at the other end.

lee2017 wrote:
'N' gauge or 00. I really want to utilize DCC (hope again I'm not being ambitious), so my my thoughts are that 00 is probably going to have more options available to me. It's also a larger scale, easier on the eyes, and much much more manageable for my larger and clumsy hands. I realise that this is a bit of a compromise as 'N' gauge would not be as space hungry - If anyone has any suggestions regards to scale I am open to any suggestions or tips.



What usually happens at this stage is that the N gaugers all advise you to go N, and the 00 gaugers all tell you to go 00! It seems that you have weighed this up aready.

Although I am a dedicated 00 gauger and fully agree your own thoughts, I do appreciate that N gauge has one advantage, and that is, as you point out, space utilisation. At the end of the day however the decision will be yours.

DCC's far too modern for me, so I have nothing to offer there!

lee2017
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:09 pm

Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby lee2017 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:46 pm

Thanks ex-pat for your imput again :)

Dad-1 wrote:Hi Lee,

Welcome to NRM.


Keep away from 1st radius curves, they tend to limit what locomotives you can run
reliably. Also I would suggest Peco streamline live-frog as your points of choice. What
we call Set-Track are far too tight a radius AND are made for 67 mm track separation.
Streamline offer 3 lengths of points with geometry providing for 50 mm track separation.
That smaller gap is nearer prototype and saves space.

Other than that keep thinking and ask questions BEFORE you spend money, it could save

Geoff T.


Just looking at Peco streamline, and I see there are different codes of track (sorry if this sounds a bit of a beginner question) but what do the codes refer to? :)

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glencairn
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby glencairn » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:57 pm

Hi Lee. Welcome to the Forum. Just to throw something into the mix; how about modelling a variation of Leeds Copley Hill from around 1954-1963. Looking at Shed Bash U K:Leeds Copley Hill shows some excellent photos (imo) of the shed, goods and carriage sidings. Also it lists engines based there on different dates.

Glencairn
To the world you are someone. To someone you are their world.

lee2017
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:09 pm

Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby lee2017 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:03 pm

glencairn wrote:Hi Lee. Welcome to the Forum. Just to throw something into the mix; how about modelling a variation of Leeds Copley Hill from around 1954-1963. Looking at Shed Bash U K:Leeds Copley Hill shows some excellent photos (imo) of the shed, goods and carriage sidings. Also it lists engines based there on different dates.

Glencairn


I'll have a look at that, that does sound like it might be a great location, with the kind of operations that I would like to run on the layout. Thank You :)

Ex-Pat
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Ex-Pat » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:18 pm

lee2017 wrote:
Just looking at Peco streamline, and I see there are different codes of track (sorry if this sounds a bit of a beginner question) but what do the codes refer to? :)


The bog standard is Code 100, with Code 75 being termed "finescale" (much nearer to scale)

These photos show comparisons of 4 sets of track (2 Code 75 & 2 Code 100)

SMP 1.jpg
SMP 1.jpg (236.99 KiB) Viewed 495 times


SMP 2.jpg
SMP 2.jpg (128.94 KiB) Viewed 495 times


You can see how much finer the Code 75 track is. The only warning here is that Lima and other older coarse wheels have flanges that are too deep for Code 75.

You can also see that SMP has more realistic sleeper spacing (although it is not widely available).

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Bufferstop
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:23 pm

Hi Lee, and another welcome. Don't get too hung up about the sleeper spacing, whats the point in having the sleepers the exact scale distance apart when the rails come out at only 4' 1" apart. Looked at in isolation the Peco sleeper spacing with rails 16.5mm apart looks to be reasonable in proportion. How often do you get to look square on at the sleepers along with something else to judge the dimensions by. It's almost always at an angle and hopefully it's underneath a train, so it's not such a problem as many people think.
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TimberSurf
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby TimberSurf » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:10 am

lee2017 wrote:
'N' gauge or 00. I really want to utilize DCC (hope again I'm not being ambitious), so my my thoughts are that 00 is probably going to have more options available to me. It's also a larger scale, easier on the eyes, and much much more manageable for my larger and clumsy hands. I realise that this is a bit of a compromise as 'N' gauge would not be as space hungry - If anyone has any suggestions regards to scale I am open to any suggestions or tips.

Hi and welcome
I am a dedicated OOer and 2O years ago would have steered you away from N gauge (as there was little available), but these days there are many main stream suppliers of rolling stock and a huge range of scenery available too, have a look around NRM and you will see many N gauge layouts that are every bit as good and detailed as OO gauge. So its really about how much you can pack into your available 'space' and how comfortable you are with your large thumbs!

Wander around my website as it has some good tips for beginners in the guide section Lumsdonia Controls Guide
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Lumsdonia <--- Hit link to go to my website for full story and wiring advice!

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luckymucklebackit
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby luckymucklebackit » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:04 am

lee2017 wrote:Thanks guys for the welcome and the 'reality check' :)

As for operating the railroad. I really really do not want it to be a layout, which the trains just tootle around at their own leisure in continuous loops, It has to be operational layout where I can enjoy shunting and managing engines and rolling stock. I'm looking at building a horseshoe baseboard which will run around 3 walls of the shed with the largest width being on the back wall of the shed. In my case with all of the above, I do feel that an end to end layout will suite better than a circuit layout.



Hi Lee, can I add my welcome to the forum, you sound like my kind of modeller, my advice is to take a good long time thinking about the track plan and how it fits your aims. With careful planning a lot can be fitted into 10 x 8 even with 00 but if you go for "N" gauge you could really give yourself a major project. The main limitation with a space of 10 x 8 would be train lengths, even a 5 coach train with loco is six feet long, but only half that in "N".
Another tip that I offer to all new modellers with a decent size space to fill, create a project where you can divide it up into small stages with achievable completion times, some schemes take too log to get to a workable state and can result in abandonment (been there - done that).

Jim
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End2end
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby End2end » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:01 am

Hi Lee2017 and welcome to the forum. :)
Most points have already been discussed except one I think.
Why not model BOTH ideas. Surely It would only take a change of on-track rolling stock with scenery being made to fit both eras-ish by changing over cars etc that would have been on the road during each period, some even possibly covering both?
Both periods being well before the scrappage scheme. :lol:

I have seen dual-era layouts and they don't take long to remove one era, replacing it with the other.
Obviously the time gaps between the supposed modelled eras wasn't large. You don't want a chap stuck down to a platform talking on a mobile phone when papers cost 2d on the newstand. :lol:

Thanks
End2end
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Emettman
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby Emettman » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:29 pm

Hello and welcome.

I don't know the area at all, so can give no advice on the real railways that might be modelled.

Thinking about 10x8 in OO, however, just in itself, the length and one end is going to be eaten up in creating a terminus that can handle a reasonable number of coaches once the pointwork to handle several platforms is added in.
A goods and a loco facility added to that should be possible.

To get some running (the the fiddle yard will otherwise start almost at the station throat) there is enough length in 10x8 to build a looped 8 mainline, or have a largely independent single or double track high level circuit to give trains a chance "stretch their legs."

Yes, this is completely away from the "actual station as first goal" approach but it probably needs thinking of in OO in the space available.
In N reproducing known locations would be considerably easier.

Chris.
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

mekydro
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Re: Hi from me and a few of my ideas.

Postby mekydro » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:38 pm

A 10x8 space sounds a lot but OO gauge kit soon eats it up. I have a long loft - about 18 feet - and when I was considering building my layout it seemed to be an enormous space. I stuck with the OO kit that I had always had - but I have often over the years, wished I had gone for N. Then, instead of a double-loop with 3 stations, I could have had a 4-track mainline!

Good luck with what ever you decide.


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