Problem with Mainline Patriot

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Raymondo15
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:28 pm

Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Raymondo15 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Following my viewing of a YouTube video about servicing the above loco', I set out to do the same for mine. It has for a while
been reluctant to move forwards.
I followed the guidance and I was able to get to the point where I had accessed the armature, removed it to clean, replaced the Hornby (fitting) springs, re-fitted the 2 bushes, and fitted the spring covers. Ensuring that I refitted the commutator washers (as indicated by the video) I then tested the motor which worked well in both directions. So, on to the wheels and re-oiling of bearings, and Valve Gear Assembly. I then started to refit the motor and removed cover into the body of the loco, bearing in mind to be cautious in squeezing it in the narrow body section (advice from video) - quite a tight fit! Upon applying power to the two spring covers by leads, nothing happened. The wheels did not appear to be rigid to the sides, moved a little as expected so should be engaging . I took out the motor again, and it worked well with same power source. On the track (checked independently by a roving 0-4-0), there was no life to the loco.
I hope it is possible someone can recognise the problem from experience , and come back to me.

Thanks in advance
Raymondo15
"I'm getting there!"

mahoganydog
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Location: Sat looking at the computer screen

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby mahoganydog » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:00 pm

Hi Raymondo,

Try putting power to the chassis half's directly. If it still doesn't respond that means one or both terminals of the motor aren't making electrical contact with the chassis. If it does respond the problem is between the axles and chassis.

Hope this helps.

Jim
In a world of fences and doors who needs windows and gates?

Bigmet
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Bigmet » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:55 pm

Jim's suggestion is most likely, and it is useful to test each half of the chassis to see whether it is just one or both that are not connected to a motor terminal.

Raymondo15
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:28 pm

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Raymondo15 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:17 pm

Thanks to Bigmet and mahoganydog for their thoughts. Unfortunately I'm unsure how I could test as you suggest , ie where to take my power leads
on the chassis/motor to vet the circuit.
Additionally I remember from the video that the person doing the service was surprise that the second screw he removed was longer than the first. Is possible that is significant , and may point to the lack of transfer of power to the wheels? If I may mention the video again: published on YouTube by Sam's Trains under how to service a Mainline Patriot locomotive.

Does the above bring forward any further action/test thoughts ?
Regards
Raymondo 15
"I'm getting there!"

4472
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby 4472 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:01 pm

How about contacting Sam's TRains
Great grandson of Peter Benjamin Spicer (LNWR retired)

Bigmet
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Bigmet » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:17 am

Raymondo15 wrote:Unfortunately I'm unsure how I could test as you suggest , ie where to take my power leads on the chassis/motor to vet the circuit...


The chassis is made of two castings held parallel by insulating assemblies, by design each casting is 'live' to the rail it stands closest to. There has to be an electrical connection from each chassis half to one of the motor terminals.

You have tested the motor by applying power via leads to motor terminals. Repeat this test by applying power to the chassis, one lead to each chassis half. If the motor doesn't run, then at least one chassis half isn't connected to a motor terminal.

You can work out the location of the connection failure(s) by having one lead on a chassis half and trying the other quickly on the motor terminals: if you can get the motor to run that way then the chassis half the lead is on must be connected to a motor terminal. Test with a lead on each chassis half in turn, and you will then know where there in no connection.

The electrical connections between chassis half and motor were typically screwed on small 'fingers' of shaped metal, near the motor location. I don't have one of these long obsolete mechanisms to look at now, so you will have to hunt around for the arrangment on this mechanism.

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Hornchurch
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Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 8:35 pm
Location: East Anglia

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Hornchurch » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:44 am

Bigmet wrote:
Raymondo15 wrote:Unfortunately I'm unsure how I could test as you suggest , ie where to take my power leads on the chassis/motor to vet the circuit...
'


The chassis is made of two castings held parallel
by insulating assemblies,


.



Hi again BigMet.

Having just casually read thru this thread, it set me wondering two things....


1,) Given what you've said (& I've highlighted), does this mean it's a "split-chassis" Locomotive ?

2,) Given my (admittedly, pathetic), lack of knowledge on Locomotive types, does the O.P's engine have anything to do with THIS Patriot ?


(which I bought, secondhand off E-bay - pretty rare, as I usually buy new, but, liked this one, finding-out AFTER that it's a split-chassis)

I say the above (bracketed), because it would run round the track, once//twice, then stop suddenly, for no obvious reason at all.

I did take it apart, jiggle around with the (seemingly), two-split-halves & gingerly, replace everything back, as-was.

Dunno exactly what I'd done (fluke), to cure it, but after that, the damn thing ran sweet as a nut, with NO stoppages at all (thankfully)

Had the loco' for about 18-months to two-years tho', BEFORE I fiddled-around with it - That's what put me off buying secondhand **

** Noting that, back then, I wouldn't have known a 'split-chassis' from a split-Mivvi-Ice-cream :roll:
Last edited by Hornchurch on Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bigmet
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Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Bigmet » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:09 am

Hornchurch wrote: Having just casually read thru this thread, it set me wondering two things....

1,) Given what you've said (& I've highlighted), does this mean it's a "split-chassis" Locomotive ?

2,) Given my (admittedly, pathetic), lack of knowledge on Locomotive types, does the O.P's engine have anything to do with THIS Patriot ?

1.) It is a split chassis mechanism loco. I am going to assume that it is standing on the box it came in, so it was apparently manufactured by Bachmann (part of Kader) and sold under their own brand*.

2.)Yes it does, as Kader were the Chinese manufacturer used by Mainline. Kader acquired the tooling after Mainline shut up shop, and resumed production of many of the Mainline models under their Bachmann Branchline brand. However, as sold by Bachmann, the mechanism was of a different split chassis design, with a superior can motor and worm drive rather than the ringpiece 'pod' motor and all spur gear drive found in Mainline product. Externally, it looks identical to the Mainline item, as body mouldings in particular were carried over unchanged.

*Of course, there are devious types out there who will swap the Mainline drive into a Bachmann body and pass it off as the Bachmann model, in order to get the superior Bachmann mechanism for their own purposes. Hopefully yours has the can motor and worm gear split chassis, and is 'all Bachmann'.

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Hornchurch
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Location: East Anglia

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Hornchurch » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:42 pm

Bigmet wrote:
Hornchurch wrote: Having just casually read thru this thread, it set me wondering two things....

1,) Given what you've said (& I've highlighted), does this mean it's a "split-chassis" Locomotive ?

2,) Given my (admittedly, pathetic), lack of knowledge on Locomotive types, does the O.P's engine have anything to do with THIS Patriot ?




1.) It is a split chassis mechanism loco. I am going to assume that it is standing on the box it came in, so it was apparently manufactured by Bachmann (part of Kader) and sold under their own brand*.

2.)Yes it does, as Kader were the Chinese manufacturer used by Mainline. Kader acquired the tooling after Mainline shut up shop, and resumed production of many of the Mainline models under their Bachmann Branchline brand. However, as sold by Bachmann, the mechanism was of a different split chassis design, with a superior can motor and worm drive rather than the ringpiece 'pod' motor and all spur gear drive found in Mainline product. Externally, it looks identical to the Mainline item, as body mouldings in particular were carried over unchanged.

*Of course, there are devious types out there who will swap the Mainline drive into a Bachmann body and pass it off as the Bachmann model, in order to get the superior Bachmann mechanism for their own purposes. Hopefully yours has the can motor and worm gear split chassis, and is 'all Bachmann'.
'


Hi again BigMet,

Thanks for the clarification that it actually "is" a split-chassis-Loco', as since then, I've read countless negative things about them
(although I'd guess it isn't always 'doom & gloom' ?)

Where you wrote.... "I am going to assume that it is standing on the box it came in" = The answer is a resounding, "YES"

After typing this (quickly), I shall try to dig-out a photograph of aforesaid box, showing the front box-top cover


IMG_1953_1024pixels.jpg



As for 'section.2' of my questions & your reply, can you tell me (inform me), as to "when" Mainline as a manufacturer chucked-in the towel ?

I'd seen a few of their coaches (coaching-stock), for sale, secondhand, over on E-bay, but never knew where they sat, in terms of quality.

Some irony, as, since my initial 2016 return to this hobby, I've bought mostly 'Bachmann only' coaches, nearly all Blue/Grey Mk.1's, or NSE Mk.1's.


Gotta say many thanks for the excellent shakedown explanation, regarding my own Loco's drivetrain setup & how to I.D one-type, from another.

Praise the Lord that my own example (pictured), HAS the later 'worm-drive' you've mentioned & explained, as I noted when dissecting it.

Very great care was taken by myself, to put the damn-thing back, as I found it, yet, mysteriously, it ran 100% with NO stoppages thereafter**

** Prior to that, I'd be lucky "if" it would even complete one lap, or even 3/4, stopping abruptly, for no apparent reason each time.

Not sure what I'd done, removed, jogged, but it has run superbly ever since then, with me giving the mildest trickle of sewing-machine oil
( on the drive-worm )

Now I'll try & dig-out those pix.... BTW : I always thought it was quite a handsome loco' too.

IMG_1945 x 1024.jpg

Bigmet
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Problem with Mainline Patriot

Postby Bigmet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:02 am

Hornchurch wrote: ... "when" Mainline as a manufacturer chucked-in the towel ?...

I'd seen a few of their coaches (coaching-stock), for sale, secondhand, over on E-bay, but never knew where they sat, in terms of quality.

Some irony, as, since my initial 2016 return to this hobby, I've bought mostly 'Bachmann only' coaches, nearly all Blue/Grey Mk.1's, or NSE Mk.1's...

Mainline stopped in the early 1980s, not quite sure when as career, family etc. was in full flood, no time for model railways. Their coaches were OK by the standards of the day, and the last BR mk1 they did - a restaurant buffet - rather good, especially if fitted with flush glazing, when it visually integrates comfortably with the Bachmann product.

Hornchurch wrote: ...Thanks for the clarification that it actually "is" a split-chassis-Loco', as since then, I've read countless negative things about them (although I'd guess it isn't always 'doom & gloom' ?)

Very great care was taken by myself, to put the damn-thing back, as I found it, yet, mysteriously, it ran 100% with NO stoppages thereafter**

** Prior to that, I'd be lucky "if" it would even complete one lap, or even 3/4, stopping abruptly, for no apparent reason each time.

Not sure what I'd done, removed, jogged, but it has run superbly ever since then, with me giving the mildest trickle of sewing-machine oil ( on the drive-worm )...

These Bachmann mechanisms are still 'tweaky' as you have found. You probably moved the contact spring to one of the motor terminals slightly, and got good contact! Now, they were of limited value to me as an enthusiastic operator - others found the same thing - if worked hard they fall apart over half a dozen years, By then the plating on tyres and chassis is all worn off, and plastic gears and axle components are cracking; so my preference is for regular steel axle and wiper pick up mechanisms which easily put in 15 - 20 trouble free years before first overhaul to replace worn away pick up wipers.

But used more gently with minimal lubrication they will achieve a decent working life. Don't get oil on the plastic inserts in the wheelfaces as these will often swell. A plastic compatible light grease appears to be the best lubricant. Cleaning out the axle locations and stub axles is indicated when running becomes irregular, Bachmann suggested IPA as the cleaning agent. Be very careful around the plastic slide bars, if they get bent, that's curtains, they are unrepairable.


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