How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

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Hornchurch
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How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Hornchurch » Tue May 07, 2019 4:26 am

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As per title (dim-witted question, I know, BUT...), How Many Brake, or Brake Composites CARRIAGES Should I Have ?

I only just got back into railway-models in summer 2016 & have never (sadly), been a railway-buff.

What I know about railways, can be pretty-much be written on the back of a postage-stamp, w/room for the Lords' prayer.

With my embarrassingly little knowledge, I'm naturally assuming that it's ONLY going to be "one per train", right ?

Am looking at the Hatton's site & some typical B.R Blue/Grey Mk.1's - This is typical of most of my carriage-stock (plus Mk.2's)


Quite frankly, I wouldn't know the difference between a 'BSO' or a 'BCK' (the two that I'm looking at, via Hattons).


So, given they'll be towed/tugged along by a typical Blue B.R Class 37/47/50/52 = How many should I have, per train ?


Also, where do they go, in the layout of the train itself ? - Right at the very front ? - or, Right at the very back ?

P.S, No, this isn't a "wind-up" = I really am that frikkin' clueless :lol: Hence just ONE of the reasons for joining this site.

Most of my stuff is in storage, as I don't yet have a permanent layout - My intention is to build a large layout someday.

Am hoping I can garner SOME knowledge on the carriage layout of B.R.Blue/Grey Mk.1's/2's, plus those of Network South East.

Cheers in advance for ANY (sensible) help.
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P.S, = Upon checking amongst the carriages I've bought so far,

The following of mine are brake or brake composite....39-411, 39-380A, 39-082B, (plus a totally separate livery, 39-079C)


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luckymucklebackit
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby luckymucklebackit » Tue May 07, 2019 8:24 am

Hi Hornchurch - the question you have asked is one that I have seen many times before, and to be honest there is no definitive answer, the rule book says that there must be one and that it should preferably be towards the rear of the train, but as most formations of that era ran as fixed, what would be at the back going in one direction would be a the front going the other. There was also some debate as to whether the brake compartment should be at the end of the train, but I have seen photographs of trains running with the coach either way round. Then there are the exceptions, on some lines (e.g. Kyle of Lochalsh) the brake was marshaled in the middle to ensure that the mail compartment was handy for the station building and unloading (on this line a BG (full brake) was used). If the train was going to split en-route (example Glasgow and Edinburgh to Liverpool/Manchester) there would be two, one for each section once split.

Personally my advice would be to look at as many photographs of that era that you can find and use the examples seen as a basis for your model formations

Jim
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Bigmet
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Bigmet » Tue May 07, 2019 8:32 am

There has to be a guard's brake vehicle in every train.

It should be positioned in the train with no more than eight axles behind it. That means that in a five coach train, it can be the centre vehicle, and the train can then be reversed 'as is' from a terminating destination once the loco has run round to what will now be the front end. (BR operated trains in this way.)

Longer trains operated on out and return services - which is most - would be made up with two Guard's brakes, typically at each end.

There were all sorts of exceptions - as examples mentioned above - but these rules are safe guidelines for general operation, thereafter refer to photos or carriage working diagrams.

The BR mk1 brake that is essential is the BSK. Outnumbered the combined total of the rest of the mk1 gangwayed brake's built something more than 3:1. The other brake vehicles still present in large numbers as blue and grey was introduced were the LNER and LMS BG's (full brakes) attached to a great many passenger trains for reasons various.

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Mountain
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Mountain » Tue May 07, 2019 9:15 am

A minimum of one as it carries the safety equipment and has the handbrake. The luggage carrying side of things is a secondary extra. In theory one may have as many as one wants but it will restrict passenger accomodation somewhat. For shorter trains one will do. Trains were not allowed to run without one, though a goods brake van could be used (E.g. for a preserved railway) instead. For longer trains it was normal practice to habe two if they could. One at eaither end.

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Bufferstop
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Bufferstop » Tue May 07, 2019 9:19 am

Typical make ups running out of a London terminus would have a couple of vans followed by a brake, then the firsts, a buffet if there was one then the seconds, another brake and one or two vans or extra coaches, usually seconds or composites. The bit in the middle was treated as a standard set. The vans up at the buffer stop end avoided a long drag down the platform to load and unload, any extras were put on the "country end" before the loco was attached. There might have been a loco trapped at the buffers until the train departed. This kind of make up lasted until someone had the brainwave of having DVTs, which saved an awful lot of wasted loco time and running round. It also coincided with a reduction in parcels traffic and led eventually to the fixed length train. But as everyone has said there were plenty of exceptions. Just to complicate as time went on full brakes were often used as vans.
On my "heritage" line I either run three coach, two plus brake or four coach two plus brake plus one. Longer trains aren't a problem, four coaches is the maximum my platforms will hold.
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21C1
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby 21C1 » Tue May 07, 2019 11:04 am

If you have a train which splits into a number of parts as the Atlantic Coast Express on the Southern Railway, then there will be one for each part. Usually a Compo but not always.

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Mountain
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Mountain » Tue May 07, 2019 6:36 pm

I think the coaches seen around here when I was younger were either a four coach with a single brake or an eight coach with two brake vans. So it may have been that it was easier to manage them as 4 coach sets. (B.R. MK1's). We dis occasionally see other things like 6 coaches or 10 coaches which included a buffet... When the local primary schools were having their school trip (Which were arranged with British Rail so all the local schools near the railway would turn up at their stations) we had a 14 coach train and I believe it started at Carmarthen and picked up children at every stop until Llanelli. I got on at Pembrey & Burry Port. The train was full. I believe it was a class 47 pulling but I can't remember. I do remember the journey as it was only years later I worked out the route when I started working the route myself as a guard. We went via the District Line. Not many if us guards signed it as it was a bypass line for freight traffic. One girl a year younger then me screamed at every tunnel she went under. She hardly took a breath. She almost fainted when we went under the Severn Tunnel!
The 14 coaches werw far too long for most of the platforms down here.
Other interesting local (Local to me in West Wales (In the South West Of Wales)) long train which took place once a year was the British Railways Mystery Tour. and a driver who used to be a guard who worked it told me that the only mystery about it was way every year B.R. took it to Barry Island!
I worked E&C workings (Engine and coaches) and it was normally formed of four MK2's (Air Conditioned though none of the AC actually worked) pulled by class 50's. Only a few of us signed to work it. The service ran from Cardiff Central to Fishguard Harbour and for us guards it was split into three seperate turns which we would tent to pick up part of it at either the end portion of our shift or the start portion of our shift and they were fairly long shifts.

George Stein
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby George Stein » Fri May 10, 2019 12:24 am

Interesting discussion. Now I had always assumed that in the era of steam, second/third class coaches were marshaled close to the locomotive and first class coaches were towards the rear. Point was to spare the rich cinders & soot pre air conditioning. This was done (usually) in the USA and the German Reichsbahn. As for my GWR trains running at the local club, more than five coaches have brake (or brake composite) at front and rear.

Always learning something on this forum.

George
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Bigmet
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Bigmet » Fri May 10, 2019 10:30 am

George Stein wrote:Interesting discussion. Now I had always assumed that in the era of steam, second/third class coaches were marshaled close to the locomotive and first class coaches were towards the rear. Point was to spare the rich cinders & soot pre air conditioning...

The services to Scotland out of Kings Cross had the first class at the south end of the train both directions, which was nearest the main concourse and first class waiting room at KX. This has been maintained in the present IC225 set formations, which are just about to be withdrawn from service on this route. Will it be maintained on the new class 801 units?

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Hornchurch
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Re: How Many Brake, or Brake Composites Should I Have ?

Postby Hornchurch » Fri May 24, 2019 2:08 am

Bigmet wrote:
There has to be a guard's brake vehicle in every train.
It should be positioned in the train with no more than eight axles behind it. That means that in a five coach train, it can be the centre vehicle, and the train can then be reversed 'as is' from a terminating destination once the loco has run round to what will now be the front end.


luckymucklebackit wrote:
Hi Hornchurch - the question you have asked is one that I have seen many times before,

Jim
Bufferstop wrote:

Typical make ups running out of a London terminus would have a couple of vans followed by a brake, then the firsts, a buffet if there was one then the seconds, another brake and one or two vans or extra coaches, usually seconds or composites.


'



May I say 'Many Thanks' to all six of you guys who responded on this subject - I'm most grateful for ALL your responses.

I felt SO embarrassed to ask, initially....
But reading (LuckMuckB'kit) Jim's reply made me feel less awkward, seeing that others have obv's mentioned it too.

I really should've paid more attention, back in the era of 'Blue & Greys' = but like many, just took things for granted.

My desire to get a nice new 'rake' of Blue & Greys only came as late as summer 2016, prompted after a visit to Bure Valley's excellent shop.

I often see Brake & Brake-Composites going at sensible money, but certainly didn't want to over-indulge.

Being clueless didn't help, but, thanks to this fine forum & your measured & informative replies, I'm a smidge more clued-in now (hopefully)

Cheers again Lads....


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