Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

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boxbrownie
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby boxbrownie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:06 pm

Profile issues?

Looks like a Deltic to me......and I been in them, even the big blue one :lol:

I am sure the new version will be better than previous editions, how much that improvement is worth only the buyer can decide, like almost everything in life usually things get better. Certainly the wine I am drinking right now is so much better for being left alone for a few years :lol:

Cheers......
Best regards David

Please let me know if anything in my post offends you......I may wish to offend again.

Mike Parkes
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Mike Parkes » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:40 pm

GeraldH wrote:I must confess that I'm struggling to see the need for models with even higher levels of detail, fragility and cost.

A well detailed model does not necessarily have increased fragility - the problem currently is the obsession Hornby in particular have for the use of plastic for many parts which any fit for purpose assessment would expect to be in metal. I do wonder if the crazy list price of the M7 in particular (now £155.99) is down to the amount of far too fragile plastic parts used and the cost of production due to assembly breakages- would it really be that much more expensive to fit a turned brass whistle and metal pipework between the driving wheels and bogie truck.

34G
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby 34G » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:04 am

Calm dowm before the rivets are counted, lest one be counted thus. Better rendition, no? Cheaper? Cheaper with sound? Why and wherefore the crying?

allan
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby allan » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:05 am

Boksonay wrote:
allan wrote:In 00 scale, the real turn-off, for me, is the tension lock coupler. The "other" Europeans dealt with this issue 25 years ago, with NEM coupler mechanisms, a solution that is quite appropriate to 00 scale, but one that has not yet been fully embraced. Being able to run 00 scale locos and rolling stock buffer-to- buffer, out of the box, has remained an elusive dream, but that's how the prototype ran. OK, so three link chains are unmanageable, but there are a good number of NEM compatible couplers readily available - Kadees #17 to 20 being just one example.


Absolutely! The Deltic will include a fully detailed bufferbeam, as well as NEM sockets for your choice of coupler! (and metal sprung buffers of course)


Sprung buffers are a step forward, but NEM coupler pockets are of very limited use if they are not fitted to NEM 352 mechanisms, limiting the choice of couplers to Kadees, and then, really, only on curves of 24" or greater radius.

Boksonay
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Boksonay » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:31 am

allan wrote:
Boksonay wrote:
allan wrote:In 00 scale, the real turn-off, for me, is the tension lock coupler. The "other" Europeans dealt with this issue 25 years ago, with NEM coupler mechanisms, a solution that is quite appropriate to 00 scale, but one that has not yet been fully embraced. Being able to run 00 scale locos and rolling stock buffer-to- buffer, out of the box, has remained an elusive dream, but that's how the prototype ran. OK, so three link chains are unmanageable, but there are a good number of NEM compatible couplers readily available - Kadees #17 to 20 being just one example.


Absolutely! The Deltic will include a fully detailed bufferbeam, as well as NEM sockets for your choice of coupler! (and metal sprung buffers of course)


Sprung buffers are a step forward, but NEM coupler pockets are of very limited use if they are not fitted to NEM 352 mechanisms, limiting the choice of couplers to Kadees, and then, really, only on curves of 24" or greater radius.


What is the alternative though? Ultimately, most modellers will use the supplied mini tension lock, and using a NEM socket on the loco allow those who prefer alternatives easy swap / replacement.
Accurascale and Irish Railway Models
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https://accurascale.co.uk

allan
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby allan » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:41 am

Boksonay wrote:
allan wrote:
Boksonay wrote:
Absolutely! The Deltic will include a fully detailed bufferbeam, as well as NEM sockets for your choice of coupler! (and metal sprung buffers of course)


Sprung buffers are a step forward, but NEM coupler pockets are of very limited use if they are not fitted to NEM 352 mechanisms, limiting the choice of couplers to Kadees, and then, really, only on curves of 24" or greater radius.


What is the alternative though? Ultimately, most modellers will use the supplied mini tension lock, and using a NEM socket on the loco allow those who prefer alternatives easy swap / replacement.


The best alternative is to "raise the bar", and fit full NEM 352 mechanisms which will allow true close coupling. As I've previously noted, non-British European manufacturers have been doing this since 1995. Have a look at some European models (Roco, Fleischmann or Brawa, for example), to see what a difference this makes - buffer to buffer running, but still able to negotiate absurdly tight curves and to remain compatible with existing model rolling stock.

Do note that a rigid NEM coupler box will not allow use of some couplers: Flieschmann Profis, and Roco couplers become a rigid bar when coupled, like the Hornby close couplers (which are a poor copy of the Roco couplers).

boxbrownie
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby boxbrownie » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:33 am

Funnily enough having just decided to go back to 4mm from 7mm I have been looking around at coupler options, and to be honest it hasn’t got much better than when I last modelled 4mm 20 years ago, weighing it all up and considering my new layout will be nothing special just a roundy roundy with some shunting sidings I pretty much have chosen to use normal mini hook and loop tension couplers, these seem to be a safe alternative, for sure no delayed coupling but at least I can have a few clear acetate strips in the sidings to facilitate uncoupling where needed.
Best regards David

Please let me know if anything in my post offends you......I may wish to offend again.

Boksonay
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Boksonay » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:35 am

allan wrote:
Boksonay wrote:
allan wrote:
Sprung buffers are a step forward, but NEM coupler pockets are of very limited use if they are not fitted to NEM 352 mechanisms, limiting the choice of couplers to Kadees, and then, really, only on curves of 24" or greater radius.


What is the alternative though? Ultimately, most modellers will use the supplied mini tension lock, and using a NEM socket on the loco allow those who prefer alternatives easy swap / replacement.


The best alternative is to "raise the bar", and fit full NEM 352 mechanisms which will allow true close coupling. As I've previously noted, non-British European manufacturers have been doing this since 1995. Have a look at some European models (Roco, Fleischmann or Brawa, for example), to see what a difference this makes - buffer to buffer running, but still able to negotiate absurdly tight curves and to remain compatible with existing model rolling stock.

Do note that a rigid NEM coupler box will not allow use of some couplers: Flieschmann Profis, and Roco couplers become a rigid bar when coupled, like the Hornby close couplers (which are a poor copy of the Roco couplers).


Aha! I see the confusion - my apologies, while we are of course fitting a standard NEM socket, it will absolutely be mounted on a NEM352 (or what we call Kinematic) system. We actually shop close coupling bars with some of our wagons (Like our Irish Tara Mines Wagon)
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Bigmet
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:04 am

allan wrote:...The best alternative is to "raise the bar", and fit full NEM 352 mechanisms which will allow true close coupling. As I've previously noted, non-British European manufacturers have been doing this since 1995. Have a look at some European models (Roco, Fleischmann or Brawa, for example), to see what a difference this makes - buffer to buffer running, but still able to negotiate absurdly tight curves and to remain compatible with existing model rolling stock...


No 'raising the bar' possible, Hornby have already gone this route since about 2004! Applies to their Brush type 2 (class 30/31) and EE type 4 (class 50) at least, and Hornby won themselves nothing but trouble with it. This in my opinion because the majority of OO customers persist with the fitted coupler which is the miniature tension lock, and this coupler not only fails to provided a re-centering action but typically tangles, and then derailments occur.

What I suspect is the most commonly used alternative RTR coupler in UK OO is the Kadee, and the swinging head of the no 17- 20 group with the NEM pocket fitting, can fail to provide enough recentering force, often resulting in extended gaps after coming off curves. (Height of irony, on the one Hornby loco where the NEM 352 mechanism would have been of greatest value, the HST, it wasn't employed: presumably because Hornby had no intention of reworking the matching mk3s with these mechanisms. Sigh.)

I feel this is one for Accurascale to think through for themselves. No OO manufacturer to date has embarked on the education programme that the HO manufacturers provided on 'how to get the best out of close coupling mechanisms'. Do Accurascale want to have a go? It will mean telling the customer base that the miniature tension lock isn't suitable. Hats off if they will, I am totally sold on close coupling for my coach sets where having the gangway faceplates in contact on straight track is a major improvement to appearance (I use the Roco coupler head within such trains, Kadees on the ends of sets).

Personally, with a Kadee in a fixed NEM pocket on the loco, coupled to a Kadee in an NEM 352 mechanism on the coach at the end of the set, the operation is good, but my absolute minimum radius on passenger lines is 30" so it's nowhere near a test for R2 operation. What's more as the situation requires, some of the Kadees used in this way are no 5s screwed on or melted into the coupler pockets, where eliminating the swinging head of the 17 to 20 type is advantageous. But I am a happy experimenter by nature...

Bigmet
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:10 am

boxbrownie wrote:Funnily enough having just decided to go back to 4mm from 7mm I have been looking around at coupler options, and to be honest it hasn’t got much better than when I last modelled 4mm 20 years ago, weighing it all up and considering my new layout will be nothing special just a roundy roundy with some shunting sidings I pretty much have chosen to use normal mini hook and loop tension couplers, these seem to be a safe alternative, for sure no delayed coupling but at least I can have a few clear acetate strips in the sidings to facilitate uncoupling where needed.

You might care to look up the 'Brian Kirby' magnetic uncoupling mod. which may be applied to the Bachmann design miniature tension lock (and possibly others if they have non-ferromagnetic hooks, but beware compatibility issues.)

RTR OO couplings are a mess to be brutally frank, but we don't really want to clutter up this thread with all that!

allan
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby allan » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:33 pm

Boksonay wrote:Aha! I see the confusion - my apologies, while we are of course fitting a standard NEM socket, it will absolutely be mounted on a NEM352 (or what we call Kinematic) system. We actually shop close coupling bars with some of our wagons (Like our Irish Tara Mines Wagon)


Congratulations! That puts you at the top of the class!

Like others working with NEM coupler mechanisms (Kinematics, if you prefer), I use Kadees only with locos and wagons that I expect to shunt: for rakes of passenger cars, Fleischmann Profis are the pick of the bunch. I've not had problems with either, though I've never played with less than 20" curves.

The future of 00 scale depends on better models, and the Deltic, a very large express passenger loco, while popular, is unsuited to the 4x6' trainset... There is now incentive to explore other options.

boxbrownie
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby boxbrownie » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:18 pm

Bigmet wrote:You might care to look up the 'Brian Kirby' magnetic uncoupling mod. which may be applied to the Bachmann design miniature tension lock (and possibly others if they have non-ferromagnetic hooks, but beware compatibility issues.)

RTR OO couplings are a mess to be brutally frank, but we don't really want to clutter up this thread with all that!


Looked at those just now but surely they just operate the same way as any tension lock but using a magnet rather than the ramp, there doesn’t seem to be any metho of “delaying” the coupling once uncoupled?

And not wishing to highjack this thread, the implentation of a proper close coupling method on the AS Deltic will be a step forward for sure but until other manufacturers follow their lead (little chance I fear) it’ll still be a complete mess trying to convert.

It might be just me but the Kaydees just look completely wrong on UK wagon stock and IMO look worse than TL couplings.
Best regards David

Please let me know if anything in my post offends you......I may wish to offend again.

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Roger (RJ)
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Roger (RJ) » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:43 pm

I'm pretty sure that there is a modified Kirby uncoupler which does allow delayed uncoupling but I can't remember where I've seen it!

It's shown in this video https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/495114552766816020/

Bigmet
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:14 pm

allan wrote:...The future of 00 scale depends on better models, and the Deltic, a very large express passenger loco, while popular, is unsuited to the 4x6' trainset... There is now incentive to explore other options.

How I would like it if a manufacturer dared to state that because of the limitations that set track imposes, in order that model 'X' can faithfully represent the prototype it will require [insert number here] minimum radius for operation. (Specific to the class 55, the relief afforded by OO's gauge inaccuracy allows this minimum radius to be circa 30"/750mm. For comparison the more accurate 4mm practise of those using EM and P4 requires circa 48"/1200mm minimum.)

In respect of the Deltic/class 55 there is no way to avoid the problem of the combination of accurate body shape and scale diameter wheel tops inside that body shape, geometry is inflexible! Visible compromise to appearance is required to get such a model around the R2 curves that are essential for set track use: and the current industry opinion is that sales would collapse below viabie volume for a plastic bodied RTR model if it were not offered able to run on R2.

So far such radius restrictions for OO have only been seen with Far Eastern handbuilt brass, the Fiatrains 'LMS twins' the most recent I recall. (These are almost exclusively collector productions which are not operated.)

b308
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Re: Accurascale to announce UK OO loco at Warley

Postby b308 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:25 pm

Not just that but "better" also implies more accurate (i.e. detailed) but plenty of modellers are already complaining that new models are too fragile (a side effect to making them more accurate!)... You'll never please all of the people all of the time! I tend to think that current RTR is a good compromise.


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