Early BR coach colour(s)

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muggins
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Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby muggins » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:54 pm

What colours should the coaches be for a BR branch line layout set sometime between 1948 and 1960? The only one I can remember with any certainty is the teak finish on the ancient non-corridor stock kicking around north Lincolnshire in the late 50s early 60s, but I don't want those!

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Mountain
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby Mountain » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:14 pm

At first theh used the old liveries of the big four but had B.R. logos. Then the blood and custard colours. They also had a darker red and custard later? Not sure. the Maroon was one of tne most popular liveries before BR blue/grey came in and blue from about 1964 onwards I believe. For years there was a maroon/blue grey mix of liveries... Most of the early years would have a mix.

Take in mind I wasnt alive back then so what I say may not be 100% accurate. Others can comment more.

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby muggins » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:41 pm

IIRC, "blood and custard" was always BR crimson and BR cream, and I suspect it was reserved for corridor stock. But that's one thing I'm not sure about. I'm guessing that the answer to my question will be BR Maroon for non-corridor stock, unless it's Southern Region green (whatever BR called that). Can anybody please confirm that or correct me?

I couldn't care less what colours they used after 1960.

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby flying scotsman123 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:16 pm

muggins wrote:IIRC, "blood and custard" was always BR crimson and BR cream, and I suspect it was reserved for corridor stock.


That's correct. In 1949 crimson and cream was introduced for corridor stock and all over crimson (not the same as maroon) for non-corridor stock. The latter was lined for a short time, but discontinued after 1952ish.

In 1956 crimson and cream was scrapped, and the individual regions were allowed to choose their own liveries. This is when maroon livery, lined for corridor and unlined for non-corridor, was introduced, except for the Southern region, which went back to green, and a few Western region trains which were painted chocolate and cream.

Of course many coaches were still in their pre-nationalisation liveries for some time after these dates, and a good deal of coaches skipped the blood and custard/crimson livery altogether.
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SRman
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby SRman » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:16 am

I agree with flying scotsman123 with one exception: the maroon non-corridor stock was lined, at least initially, but later repaints seem to have been unlined. It would be accurate to mix unlined crimson with lined and unlined maroon between 1957 and 1963.

It would also be accurate to mix lined and unlined maroon with plain blue in the late 1960s and even into the early 1970s.

I also agree with the earlier statement that there was never a darker colour (maroon?) with the cream; that was always crimson (or carmine if you prefer) and cream. The crimson colour was not very stable so faded and weathered quite badly over time.

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby muggins » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:51 am

Thank you for the helpful information, flying scotsman123 and SRman.

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby luckymucklebackit » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:17 am

Hi Muggins - the is a comprehensive website on early liveries here http://www.bloodandcustard.org/ lot of useful information

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby muggins » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:32 am

Thank you Jim. Right, that's me sorted good and proper ...

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Bufferstop
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:16 pm

Does anyone have a photo of a train containing "Blood and Custard", all over Maroon and newly repainted blue and grey. It may just be that there were one or two rakes in our area that did and I saw them regularly giving the impression of it being a more common occurrence. I think keeping the paintshops fully occupied may have been the deciding factor when the start of repainting with a new livery, followed closely on completing the previous change.
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby luckymucklebackit » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:13 pm

I don't think that happened Bufferstop, the dates suggested on the link I gave are that the very last Blood & Custard coaches were withdrawn or repainted in 1964, the XP64 set came out that year but it was kept very much as a single train and it wasn't the correct shade blue anyway, "true" corporate Blue and Grey did not appear until 1965 so there was no overlap. Some black and white photos appear to show this mix, but closer examination shows the Blood and Custard coaches to be WR Chocolate and Cream which lasted a lot longer, as did SR green. I can remember as a youngster seeing an northbound ECS at Whifflet Junction (Coatbridge near Glasgow) around 1968/9 which had a mix of maroon, Blue/Grey and one SR green coach, it very much stuck in my memory.

Edit to add that there may have been the odd NPCCS in Blood and Custard, but by that time they would have been so filthy as to be unrecognizable

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SRman
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby SRman » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:32 pm

Agreeing with Jim here, the last blood and custard coaches wnt around 1963, and even then they were rare. I think the very first BR blue and grey coaches were in late 1964, but 1965 is the safer date to adopt.

As for the green coach in Scotland, several Bulleid coaches were sent up there still in green, in exchange for some early BR mark 1 coaches to be converted for use in the Bournemouth line 4TC sets, which used all 'recycled' coaches. Even the powered 4 REP units had second-hand coaches in the centres of the units, with the only new-builds being the Driving Motor coaches.

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Mountain
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby Mountain » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:24 am

The reason why I was asking why there may have been a darker red colour is that I have models of the bright red and custard colour and the darker red colour and a faded creamy colour. Both are Lima Mk1's though I repainted over one in my youth. It could be Lima assumed there was a different shade of livery by looking at photographs.
The Lima king colour looked way out with their George V but if one sees a photograph with a golden sunset the odd colour looks spot on, which makes me assume Lima copied a photograph. This may have happened with the coaches?

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SRman
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby SRman » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 am

The crimson colour was notoriously difficult to capture properly, particularly as it changed appearance depending on the ambient light and also on the photographic processes and films at the time.

Many of the model manufacturers got it wrong. Lima and Mainline had it too dark, Triang had it as maroon on their earlier shortie coaches from the 1950s and also n the early versions of the scale length coaches from the early '60s, but way too bright (almost a glowing red!) on some of the same coaches from the 1970s. Bachmann's earlier efforts were also too dark.

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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby luckymucklebackit » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:21 am

SRman wrote:Agreeing with Jim here, the last blood and custard coaches wnt around 1963, and even then they were rare. I think the very first BR blue and grey coaches were in late 1964, but 1965 is the safer date to adopt.

As for the green coach in Scotland, several Bulleid coaches were sent up there still in green, in exchange for some early BR mark 1 coaches to be converted for use in the Bournemouth line 4TC sets, which used all 'recycled' coaches. Even the powered 4 REP units had second-hand coaches in the centres of the units, with the only new-builds being the Driving Motor coaches.


I had investigated this myself a while back, and the numbers of the eleven Bullied Open Seconds transferred to the ScR were 1466/71/9/82/4/9/95/8, 1500/2/4, some were painted in lined maroon with appropriate regional prefix letters before transfer (so presumably others were transferred in green). There was a picture of one still in green on the front cover of possibly "Railway World" whilst working on the West Highland in an otherwise Maroon set. The first edition of the Oakwood book on Bulleid coaches has a photo of Sc1466S in maroon at Clapham (Yorkshire) 16 June 1968, so they moved to the Scottish region between 1965 and 1968, Unfortunately I was too young to positively ID the coach I saw at Whifflet, but I used the info to justify this...

Image[/url]

Unfortunately it is not an open second so rule 1 applies!!

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Bigmet
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Re: Early BR coach colour(s)

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:21 am

SRman wrote:Agreeing with Jim here, the last blood and custard coaches went around 1963, and even then they were rare...

There's a related fact which radically changed the appearance of the railway passenger stock. Pretty much as the maroon livery was introduced in 1956, BR having by then eliminated most of the inherited pre-group passenger stock over the previous eight years, started in earnest on scrapping the inherited grouping period stock. Much of this stock went to the scrapper in carmine/carmine and cream, and much of it was not to be replaced at all, as it was already secondary, stored much of the time to cover the summer peak traffic which was falling off fast by the late fifties. And the stock that was replaced was replaced with BR design vehicles, which of course came in maroon.

This was very visible in BR's large inherited provision of carriage sidings. By the early 1960s they were both a lot emptier, and what was in them was mostly BR design vehicles in maroon. In my perception this happened over about five years, 1957 - 61 inclusive. In 1957 grouping design carriages were everywhere in quantity in carmine/carmine and cream. By the end of 1961 it was a Maroonwash of largely BR mk1 designs.

The survivors of grouping period designs were few, but then hung on. The ECML had Gresley and Thompson buffets, sleepers and full brakes lingering on in service: some would carry rail blue for ten years.


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