Hornby get financial lifeline

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Mountain
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Mountain » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:04 pm

b308 wrote:I doubt it, there's lots of cheapo Chinese manufactured plastic sets knocking around that would appeal to that sort of buyer already and they are a damn sight cheaper than what you describe could be sold for... Pay peanuts, get rubbish (as a variation of the old saying!)... ;)


This waggon started life as a USA outline toy which had incredible fine detail printing. I've butchered it somewhat and removed the printing to give it a UK narrow gauge look. The whole trainset (Which was to a gauge width similar to EM gauge) was often seen for less then £10, which was what a similar size RTR wagon retailed at before the prices rose to the current £15 or thereabouts. The plastic used for the body on this waggon is the same material used with our models. The chassis was a general chassis used for various bodies so was not ideal but still it worked. The chassis plastic was softer, but to have this body with such detail on the wagons really amazed me for a toy. You should have seen the tanker that came with it. It even had lovely metal handrails.
(Ignore the new chassis components and the scratches and battering the body has had to remove the printing and roughen it up for a battered look. It used to run on a pair of bogies).
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Puffingbill
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Puffingbill » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:57 pm

Great stuff Mountain my kind of modelling making something great out of nothing plus the satisfaction of doing things your own way.
Cheers
B Bear.

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Bigglesof266
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:51 am

Hornby havin' a laff? If they aren't, I am. :lol:

I got to choose between this (plus factor in a price of a Zimo or Lenz basic decoder) or or this for the same money. Guess which I ordered on Tuesday? :roll:

Unfortunately for Hornby I have loads of locos - including unrebuilt and rebuilt Merchant Navy, and rolling stock. More than sufficient to see me out if I never ever bought another loco ever. I'd still buy heaps out of sheer self indulgance if prices weren't ridiculous for a piece of moulded plastic and suspect Mazak hiding a $1 canned motor. No discounting = no sale. 100% of no sale = $0. Tim is playing a similar game. I wonder how many others are?

Two new Fender amplifiers and another guitar also winging their way to me from DE now including 100W of 'crank up the volume' solid state modelling goodness. Hornby could have had a slice of that surplus income spending had they not chosen to triage themselves out of contention.

I'll wait to buy Hornby again when they come to their senses. They're selling toys, not something I have to have to breath or see.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby GWR_fan » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 am

Keiron,
100% correct. I have only spent a pittance recently and only because they represented fantastic value plus they were at least 10 - 15 years old. I do not buy new any more and only will if it is a must have. Nearly went for a Heljan "night owl", now glad I backed away. No interest at all in any new Hornby (European pricing with inconsistent Chinese quality).

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Mountain
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Mountain » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:18 pm

Bigglesof266 wrote:Hornby havin' a laff? If they aren't, I am. :lol:

I got to choose between this (plus factor in a price of a Zimo or Lenz basic decoder) or or this for the same money. Guess which I ordered on Tuesday? :roll:

Unfortunately for Hornby I have loads of locos - including unrebuilt and rebuilt Merchant Navy, and rolling stock. More than sufficient to see me out if I never ever bought another loco ever. I'd still buy heaps out of sheer self indulgance if prices weren't ridiculous for a piece of moulded plastic and suspect Mazak hiding a $1 canned motor. No discounting = no sale. 100% of no sale = $0. Tim is playing a similar game. I wonder how many others are?

Two new Fender amplifiers and another guitar also winging their way to me from DE now including 100W of 'crank up the volume' solid state modelling goodness. Hornby could have had a slice of that surplus income spending had they not chosen to triage themselves out of contention.

I'll wait to buy Hornby again when they come to their senses. They're selling toys, not something I have to have to breath or see.

Well. For the same price as that loco one can buy a new bicycle (A budget one but still will work well and ride the way it is supposed to and be safe for the road (If set up correctly)). Which offers better value for money if one was buying and comparing what you get for your money?

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Bigglesof266
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:08 pm

By any logical arbitary standard, the guitar by far.

That guitar comes fitted with excellent components offering contemporary stage standard performance, and is decent quality despite its killer price. In a sentence, it punches way above its retail price point. Y'know, the kind of thing we'd like to see and should expect from Hornby rather that the all too characteristic obverse.

The price of the guitar is reflective of how it is marketed in that every man and his dog isn't being stood a free drink on the way to the consumer happy not to have an associative cult/famous name decal on the headstock. OTOH any generic pushbike at that price point is simply indisputable junk. But then you already know that.

Just as you should already know that those who buy rubbish clunkers don't ride them regularly if at all after the "it sounded like a good idea at the time" five minutes of enthusiasm is rapidly brought to brook by the reality that traversing mountain singletrack or regularly riding distance at pace is really, really hard work, rendered between impossible at the first gradient to completely unenjoyabe bordering on unsafe on a heavy rubbish componented unreliable clunker. OTOH I'd play that well built and decent spec guitar. It's 100% stage giggable loaded with quality components.

That guitar is useable for purpose and represents value. The pushbike at that pricepoint isn't and doesn't.

FTR I currently own and ride regularly every alternate day, five bicycles. I'm my own spanner. Been doing it since I was knee high. Current inventory. Two roadies -a venerable steel conventional Triathlon running Superbe & composite compact Endurance105 5700, two hardtails and a dualie. Riding to me isn't wobbling 500 metres down to the local on for a packet of fags.

I ride with purpose for fitness and enjoyment, 40-50km every alternate morning and usually mtb-ing an afternoon once a fortnight. Weekends I do a social group roadie 80km.

Now you might, but I woudn't choose to ride a junk bike. And you know why if you know bikes anywhere near as well as you claim to.

Comfort and performance are critical factors to cut that distance at pace. Labels don't matter. Quality & reliability does. Every component on any bicycle in that price segment is junk which wouldn't stand up to the distance or everyday riding for long. Worse, the rider certainly wouldn't.

Junk isn't value at any price. That's what Hornby is trying on with Railroad dross, and that doesn't fly with me either.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby b308 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:26 pm

Surely what is "value for money" depends on the buyer, a bike or guitar would be worse than useless for me so of no value whatsoever no matter how well made, but a decent £500 secondhand car offers far better "value for money" than them, at least for me, and if it works OK then it's an absolute bargain bearing in mind the technology involved! ;)

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Mountain
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Mountain » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Bicycles today. In general up to a certain price you do get what you pay for (But above a certain price the gains are so small they are no practical value), but since the big money has been invested into cycling, a lot of hype and fashion has hit the market where it has changed from a quality lead market to a profit based one. Hence I've caught big names like Campag and Shimano no longer making the quality at the high end that they used to. It seems a case that just when they tweak the components and get everything good, they start new designs which are full of teething issues and failures. With the market leaders, Shimano. If you bought from their Deore range you believed it was going to last and function well. When I was last employed in 2014 Deore on new bikes... Well, let's say you were better off buying their Tourney range then their Deore XT or XTR if you wanted the thing to last and believe it or not, the Tourney range gave a better more precise gear change.
From the years I've been employed in and out of the trade over a 30 year period, I'd say the peak in quality came in the late 1980's to the early 1990's. Cheap meant slow and heavy and expensive meant sprightly and long lasting.
Today at both ends of the market, so much is profit orientated fasion based rather then performance and longlivity based that it is very hit and miss at all price ranges as to if your bicycle will run amazingly or if it needs continual maintenance.
As most of my time in the trade involved around servicing and repairs, I'd say that the largest volume of workshop cluttering returning bikes were carbon fibre racing bikes. The chief reason being the rather poor design of the bottom bracket bearing housing being the chief complaint.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby D605Eagle » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:21 pm

Bigglesof266 wrote:
Unfortunately for Hornby I have loads of locos - including unrebuilt and rebuilt Merchant Navy, and rolling stock. More than sufficient to see me out if I never ever bought another loco ever. I'd still buy heaps out of sheer self indulgance if prices weren't ridiculous for a piece of moulded plastic and suspect Mazak hiding a $1 canned motor. No discounting = no sale. 100% of no sale = $0. Tim is playing a similar game. I wonder how many others are?


In 1999 when the rebuilt merchant navy was released, a total in excess of 30000 units were made and sold. It saved Hornby. That "yet another rendition" of a Stanier duchess last year...1600 units total for all liveries
Figures speak for them selves.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:06 pm

1. Mountain, respectfully, please learn to paragraph.

2. Demand pricing based on status marketing occurs in everything today because it's particularly effective on A. conditioned simpler folk, and B. Millennials.

Fortunately I'm neither.

Your specious comparison 'argument' re Deore vs Tourney is simply erroneous, deliberately so to render your perspective appear valid.

3. The rest of your post is a straw argument.

Though not yet in receivership, Hornby's current dilemma is similar to e.g. Gibson's, stuck between a shareholder rock and a bank hard place. Nominally 'owned' by shareholders whose CEO wants to retail their guitars throught an outdated regionally price controlled distribution and retail methodology for ten to fifteen times the price of that Harley Benton they think the common man will be prepared to pay because of an emotional nonsense association with the famous Gibson name on the headstock.

Problem for Gibson is, the common man isn't buying it. Gibson even bought and reinvented the once prestigious Epiphone name as their lower tier segment to sell now made in PRC units whilst trying to retain a premium segment based upon American made 'prestige'. LOL Massive fail.

The poorer public - thats me, still isn't buying that either when any Epiphone or sub USD$2k Gibson is made in the same Chinese factory as Harley Benton, or Indonesia et al by the likes of Cort whose own brand clones of Fender, Ibanez, Gibson, Getsch style guitars are actually better and cheaper.

Gibson like Hornby want to demand price their product for silly money based on a name, which no longer represents reasonable value. The market will decide the future of both.
Last edited by Bigglesof266 on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bigglesof266
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:00 am

That "yet another rendition" of a Stanier duchess last year...1600 units total for all liveries. Figures speak for them selves.

Makes sense. My own layout orientation/special interest is Southern, and I admit to having a load of WC/BoBs & along with a few MNs.

But at the same time, I also have three detailed Stanier Duchesses, :oops: five if you include two streamlined Coronations, and I don't even model the region. Couldn't resist two Princess Royals either, probably my aesthetic favourite British non streamlined express steam locomotive. The latter all opportunity emotional impulse buying of course. Who can resist an A4, Duchess or MN when priced right? But I definitely wouldn't pay today's SRP.

The question is, is 1600 units of a higher selling single line in their range amortised with mean sales across the range sufficient to keep Hornby afloat even at current retail pricing?

Clearly the group has 'all hands to the pumps' in trying every gimmick they can think of if their Airfix's recent marketing reinvention is any gauge. Pressing ancient moulds back into service in reboxing tired old kits as a "Vintage Classic" range. Not sure whether they're target demographic is for kids to use as play toys, although I doubt it as they are already targeted and arguably better served by the model and paints included "Starter Set" range, or 'bigger kids' of the nostalgia market. I suspect the latter where they seem to be being reasonably well received by Airfix nutters of a certain age.

Much like Hornby's Railroad, those venerable tired moulds owe Airfix nothing, with anything other than minuscule material, production, and distribution costs very handsome profit. So if it works?! Fortunately Airfix have had enough sense to delineate those boxes with a "Vintage Classic" badge this time around to avoid consumer anger at the discovery that the bright red box with new and exciting bling graphics is just more long gone 'stale' 1950s through '60's era flash and rivet ridden junk.

We'll see.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:11 am

. accidental repost - deleted

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby D605Eagle » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:52 am

Bigglesof266 wrote:
But at the same time, I also have three detailed Stanier Duchesses, :oops: five if you include two streamlined Coronations, and I don't even model the region. Couldn't resist two Princess Royals either, probably my aesthetic favourite British non streamlined express steam locomotive. The latter all opportunity emotional impulse buying of course. Who can resist an A4, Duchess or MN when priced right? But I definitely wouldn't pay today's SRP.

Are they 2017 "new model" production models, or did you think that the ones you already had are good enough for what you want? This in my mind is another problem facing manufacturers, and that is the new model not being that significantly different than the outgoing model to the untrained eye? That new duchess, and the new King to me just aren't that different for me to even think about purchasing them. If you check out ebay, the new models haven't effected the second hand price of the outgoing model at all. That's a serious indicator that your new model isn't popular with the majority of your market.
I can't imagine that just 1600 units from new tooling to the degree of complication like the duchess's could even come near to breaking even. With the exception of the Ivatt improved version that had never been modelled before and the rails limited one, you can still buy one of those 1600 from many model shops.

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Mountain
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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Mountain » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:54 am

Bringing back old models works well if the price is attractive enough. As far as model railways are concerned, for most it wasn't the lack of detail but the depth and thickness of the old wheel flanges which limits secondhand sales, so reinventing them with finer wheels is an idea which should succeed if the price is attractive.
The only model I can think of that I'd change is the chassis to the 1970's class 08 along with the earlier Triang examples. Have the con rods on the outside of the frames even if they are made like Lima made theirs will make the models attractive to sell. The same redesigned chassis along with other chassis with finer wheels can also be sold as spares for those wanting to modernise old Triang and Triang/Hornby models.
Is a win win situation as far as I'm concerned as modellers who would not buy a complete modern model would likely buy aa DCC compatible chassis for an older model that had finer wheels if the price is attractive.

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Re: Hornby get financial lifeline

Postby Bigglesof266 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:26 am

No. All post millenium pre 2016. Most circa 2012 -2015 mould and production. Duchesses, Coronations, A4s, A1, A3 were all contemporary generation mould and mech until 2017. Original MN "Royal Mail" is the only NIB loco I've bought since 2016. Not a loss of interest, just pricing. Won't be buying either of the new Duchess or Coronation. Detail of my existing ones is more than adequate and scale accuracy superior to the oldies long relegated to Railroad. And importantly, they run well.

As you rightly point out, I don't perceive sufficient advantage in the newest renditions to need or want to buy again, even if Hornby's utterly reprehensible price gouging wasn't sufficient disincentive.

I really liked Hornby's short lived design clever concept when properly executed. e.g. 2-BIL and 2-HAL. It struck a practical chord with me. Like Bachmann's Mk1 and Metro-Cammell Pullman coach mould implementations, for me it is the preferred compromise of detail with usable robustness. And with slide moulding today, incredible levels of fine accurate moulded detail are possible and viable. Hornby's poorly super glued on fiddly bits detail irks me. I'd rather they just left it in the box for the consumer to glue on with the necessary care and attention it requires and deserves if they must do detail that way.


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