Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Discuss model railway topics and news that do not fit into other sections.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Mountain »

One of the difficulties for 00 (Along with other scales) gauge modellers is that they see many models for sale from the manufacturers but very little or no information exists about certain important key features about the item inside. Yes, the gauge and if it has DCC or not or even DCC sound, which are all good selling points so DC modellers will buy the DC models etc, but what about some label system to show the following key features:

Is the model suitable for first radius curves? (E.g. a label or symbol showing the sharpest radius curves it can be used with. This is needed for locos and all rolling stock, especially coaches).

Does the model have Nem pockets? (Some of us try to avoid nem pockets. To others they are a blessing).

Do the coaches have a close coupling system? (Some of us won't buy coaches with close coupling).

The type of coupling used. (If tension lock is used, is it wide, medium or the narrow type?)

If manufacturers would take the time to include this information it will encourage sales and goodwill as a few retailers dont allow customers to open the boxes, especially now that boxes are harder to open then they once were and detail is finer on the models.
Byegad
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:56 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Byegad »

To me this is a great idea. However from the manufacturers' point if view I can see issues.

Radius. If it plainly states 2nd Radius and some badly laid '2nd radius' track is on the purchasers layout, and I've seen some, then who's responsible for derailments?

Close coupling. Define close.

NEM. Is easy enough.

Type of coupling. Some manufacturers have there own definitions, we need a standardised set of descriptors.

Finally. All this information is almost certainly going to mean a slight reduction in purchases as buyers are 'warned off' certain items but hopefully a slight increase due to increased buyer confidence in others. Whether this results in a net increase or decrease is uncertain and manufacturers try to decrease uncertainty.
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Mountain »

Define close coupling... Is the mechanical devices in the coaches which will pull the couplings in when the bogies are set straight (When on straight track) and they push the couplings out when the bogie turns, and in so doing prevent buffer lock. While a novel idea, I've found these to be a right pain for causing derailments and also, as they are connected to nem sockets, the up and down plat or flexibility at the coupling end means one can't back up a train of coaches without issues as one coupling will start to ride under another. In other words, the couplings height setting is compromised. This also happens if one is to decelerate too quickly and either results in a derailment or the couplings parting company when one goes to accelerate again.
Yes, the issues between coupled coaches are less amplified if one use the permanently coupled bars between coaches (Normally supplied), but to me I dont want permanent coupled rakes of coaches as I'm always running different lengths according to the locos pulling them etc.
Due to the issues, I stopped buying coaches as it became hard to tell if one had this close coupling or not, and I wanted to stay safe after losing a lot of money (£64) on a rake of new coaches (When the Bachmann Mk1's first came out they were £18 each) when I sold them on at a loss just to get some of my money back.
Since that date the only 00 gauge coaches I've bought (Apart from the newsagent bargains!) have been secondhand Lima coaches (Mk1's) and the odd secondhand Hornby (Mk2) as I know these are very well behaved or if they are not, can be made to behave themselves by blessing them with better wheels. I'd rather sacrifice detail then to have coaches that leave the rails!
Bigmet
Posts: 10172
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Bigmet »

You are looking for the level of information typical in HO and N offered by the continental European manufacturers. You will find considerable explanation in their catalogues relating to the techniques used, and how the purchaser can exploit these to best effect.

Specific example, relating to the close coupling units on coaches. When these were introduced in HO, it was with a thorough explanation that dedicated couplers were required, designed to do the job of making a rigid bar between coupled mechanisms, to 'drive' the mechanisms correctly. Used in this manner you can push as long a train as you like through any track arrangement that the individual vehicles in the train will pass through, with no derailment.

Contrast to Bachmann and Hornby (and possibly now Oxford, is there such a mechanism on their mk3s?) when they commenced putting close coupling mechanisms on their coaches (BR mk1, Pullman cars, respectively). Nothing to say that the tension lock wasn't up to the job, or what was actually required. Bachmann included a fixed rigid link alternative from the start, and Hornby later added NEM pockets and then included their clone of a suitable pattern of Roco coupler.

But both these items were poorly executed (over-length) so that they left a gap between the gangway faceplates, which is not the intention of the concept: the idea is that on straight track the gangways are fully closed up! Gives me the impression that neither business had taken the time to understand what these mechanisms are intended to do, and how to guide purchasers to get the best from them. Thankful for small mercies, at least they have fitted it, and those interested in working it out for themselves thus have the benefit.
Byegad
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:56 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Byegad »

Mountain wrote:Define close coupling... Is the mechanical devices in the coaches which will pull the couplings in when the bogies are set straight (When on straight track) and they push the couplings out when the bogie turns, and in so doing prevent buffer lock. While a novel idea, I've found these to be a right pain for causing derailments and also, as they are connected to nem sockets, the up and down plat or flexibility at the coupling end means one can't back up a train of coaches without issues as one coupling will start to ride under another. In other words, the couplings height setting is compromised. This also happens if one is to decelerate too quickly and either results in a derailment or the couplings parting company when one goes to accelerate again.
Yes, the issues between coupled coaches are less amplified if one use the permanently coupled bars between coaches (Normally supplied), but to me I dont want permanent coupled rakes of coaches as I'm always running different lengths according to the locos pulling them etc.
Due to the issues, I stopped buying coaches as it became hard to tell if one had this close coupling or not, and I wanted to stay safe after losing a lot of money (£64) on a rake of new coaches (When the Bachmann Mk1's first came out they were £18 each) when I sold them on at a loss just to get some of my money back.
Since that date the only 00 gauge coaches I've bought (Apart from the newsagent bargains!) have been secondhand Lima coaches (Mk1's) and the odd secondhand Hornby (Mk2) as I know these are very well behaved or if they are not, can be made to behave themselves by blessing them with better wheels. I'd rather sacrifice detail then to have coaches that leave the rails!

You missed my point. I meant define how close is close.
allan
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by allan »

Byegad wrote:You missed my point. I meant define how close is close.
On straight track, buffers and diaphragms should touch, as they do on European H0 models.
User avatar
luckymucklebackit
Posts: 3712
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:05 am
Location: Eaglesham (Again)
Contact:

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by luckymucklebackit »

A reasonable suggestion, but I would doubt that the manufacturing companies would agree on a common configuration. Is it really necessary - again I doubt that there is a great need for this, every new release is reviewed and dissected to death in the magazines and forums, anyone wanting info does not need to look far to find all the relevant data on every past, present and future locomotive and rolling stock.

Jim
This Signature Left Intentionally Blank, but since I have written this and I intended to do it, this Signature is intentionally not blank. Paradox or What?
My layout - Gateside and Northbridge
Image
allan
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by allan »

Hell, if the mainland Europeans have been able to do it for thirty years, now, why is it so hard for the Poms?
User avatar
Bufferstop
Posts: 13788
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Bufferstop »

I would doubt that the manufacturing companies would agree on a common configuration.
They can't even agree on a standard length for the tensionlock hook. AFAIK Triang never patented their original or tensionlock couplings, probably because they were a version of an earlier (the LANAL) design, so why do the current manufacturers each have to incorporate their own minute but frustrating variations.
Before introducing additional labels perhaps they should work towards consistent standards, and get rid of a few home goals. The extra 3ft or so gap between wagons with tensionlocks mounted in NEM pockets is due to the the difference in length between the Roco style couplers and tensionlocks. When the NEM pocket is mounted on the end of the plug in flexible bit, instead of swapping the bit in the NEM pocket swap the whole lot , shortening it by the length of the NEM box in the process. My guess is that most people swapping on UK stock are swapping to KD''s not one of the continental types.
I could be tempted to join Mountain in the narrow gauge world where coupling mismatches are par for the course. read about the couplings in use on the ffestiniog and Welsh Highland..
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
Kentishman
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Kentishman »

allan wrote:Hell, if the mainland Europeans have been able to do it for thirty years, now, why is it so hard for the Poms?
Only thirty years? That's nothing, we took 170 years to change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar. Perhaps as we leave the EU, we should consider reverting to the Julian calendar too. At least we could get back the 11 days the government 'stole' from our forebears in 1752 ...
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Mountain »

Eleven days? Is that like the extra hour in bed when we alter the clocks? :lol: Eleven days in bed! Nope. I'd need to get up for food and to visit the loo... :D I couldn't spend eleven days in bed. I'd get bored!
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Mountain »

Kentishman wrote: At least we could get back the 11 days the government 'stole' from our forebears in 1752 ...
You're not bearing a grude are you? :lol:
(I had a humour overload!)
User avatar
End2end
Posts: 6010
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: At the end....... and sometimes at the other end

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by End2end »

Mountain wrote:Eleven days? Is that like the extra hour in bed when we alter the clocks? :lol: Eleven days in bed! Nope. I'd need to get up for food and to visit the loo... :D I couldn't spend eleven days in bed. I'd get bored!
Depends on who's bed your in! :lol:
Thanks
End2end
"St Blazey's" - The progress and predicaments.
Welcome‎
Planning
Building
St. Blazey's Works & Depot thread
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by Mountain »

Umm. Yes...! I had to laugh this morning. I was looking at tents. Specifically ridge tents. I was looking at one site and you know when Amazon adverts come up... (I once was on a search engine to try to see pictures of the moon and an Amazon advert came up "For the best prices of the moon"... Er, yes. It would have to be a good price as there's just no atmosphere!). Anyway, back to tents, I will read anything, me. I am a bit like Mr Gorman! Some of the comments made about certain tents are hilarious. I won't put them in here, but all I will say is I had a good chuckle this morning by one ladys comments.
User avatar
End2end
Posts: 6010
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: At the end....... and sometimes at the other end

Re: Labeling Idea. (Important!)

Post by End2end »

I'm oft to bellow "NO GIRLS! ...tents up fist , bunk up later" when camping :lol:
You have reminded me to get some more cable labels from Maplin before they expire though. :?
Thanks
End2end
"St Blazey's" - The progress and predicaments.
Welcome‎
Planning
Building
St. Blazey's Works & Depot thread
Post Reply