Impressed with my new X04 !

Discuss model railway topics and news that do not fit into other sections.
Vonsworld
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:32 pm

Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Vonsworld » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:55 am

I've recently been rebuilding an old Flying Scotsman with X04 motor loco drive, and am impressed with the results.

Most of my locos have ringfield or can motors and this is the first time I've used an X04 since I was a youngster in the 70's.

I was lucky enough to find a turntable motorising kit from 1981 that contained an unused X04 motor. The main problem was that the worm gear on the motor was a different length and shape to that found in a loco, since it was designed for a turntable, but I bought a gear puller and swapped the worms over.

The loco now runs really well and I'm impressed with it's pulling power. An added bonus is that without a capacitor fitted, when it's running it freezes the picture on every TV in house whilst the family are watching Eastenders ;-)

Can someone recommend any similar express locos, with X04 loco drive, that I might want to look out for in the furure and add to my collection?

User avatar
alex3410
Posts: 3401
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby alex3410 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:12 am

you can get the X04 motors refurbished which might be worth a look if you cant find anymore 'new' examples to fit into your locos

brilliant idea though and good luck locating another loco to bring back to life :D

b308
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: North Worcs

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby b308 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:26 am

Any of the 50s and 60s Triang locos used them (other than the single wheelers and bogie diesels and electrics) and several early 70s ones as well... Princess Elizabeth (and derivatives), B12, L1, Britannia (early ones), Battle of Britain (early ones), also the smaller tank locos used it as did the small diesels...

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/indexlocoS.html

You may want to get this from Peco as well before your neighbours cause you serious damage for messing with their TV watching!

http://www.pecopublications.co.uk/SYH10.html

Bigmet
Posts: 8234
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Bigmet » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:36 am

If you ever see an XO4 with the aftermarket five pole armature fitted, or the MW005 or Romford Bulldog (which were five pole equivalents to the XO4 from kit part makers) you'll like those as well. Some of the Airfix/GMR designs had a derivative of the MW005, N2 and large Prairie tanks for example.

Watch out for XO4 magnets losing field strength, because that's a quick way to an armature burn out. Sometimes this slowly 'fades away', sometimes it just 'disappears' overnight. Remagnetisation or a replacement Neo magnet do the business.

mahoganydog
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:25 pm
Location: Sat looking at the computer screen

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby mahoganydog » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:20 pm

Hi Vonsworld,

Beware using modern controllers with old motors as some such as Gaugemaster are known to have AC spikes in the DC output to the track and this causes old magnets to lose their charge. Modern Neo type magnets are unaffected.

Hornby Dublo copied the X04 to a point only they did their own thing and made it with adjustable thrust bearings and, unlike the X04, it can be completely taken apart with two screws. This motor was used in the Early Castle and 8F (later versions including Wrenn had a Ringfield) plus the R1. Wrenn continued the R1 and modded the chassis for use under the N2.

The best running of all H-D locos were the late Ringfield Castle/8F/WC and Wrenn remade these with tension lock couplings so no problems with compatibility to a point of course. Try one, they can be found in nice order for as little as £45.

Jim
In a world of fences and doors who needs windows and gates?

User avatar
Bufferstop
Posts: 12857
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:53 pm

Vonsworld wrote:The loco now runs really well and I'm impressed with it's pulling power. An added bonus is that without a capacitor fitted, when it's running it freezes the picture on every TV in house whilst the family are watching Eastenders ;-)

Sounds like it's pulling quite a high current! If it has felt pads next to the bearings, lubricate them. If it doesn't make any difference, then the magnet may already have lost some of it's strength, look for someone offering remagnetising or selling neo substitutes. try to reduce brush sparking to a minimum by getting the motor to run as freely as possible, then fit a capacitor and chokes(inductors) as detailed in the Peco book. If you want to make yourself really popular take a look at your TV aerial, if the cable doesn't have a foil sheath over the central core or an outer braid woven so thickly that your can't see through it to the core it's time to get it replaced. Digital signals are more susceptible to interference than analogue, and so called "low loss" coax, beloved of builders and 1970s cowboy arerial fitters, just can't hack it, it should be "satellite grade" or have a number like "CT 100", the 100 being the important bit.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Vonsworld
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Vonsworld » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:00 pm

Thanks for your replies,
I have also fitted a neo magnet to the loco, so have got that covered too.
I have a digital layout but have been testing the X04 loco with an old Hornby DC controller, which regularly cuts out when the engine is running, so the X04 must be overloading it. Although in my experience it is very easy to overload those controllers. I have an old car battery and the loco runs very smoothly round the layout off that.
I'd like to convert the loco to DCC next, and plan to use a Lenz decoder, which has a 1 amp output, so should cope well.
I know the decoder has built in capacitors, but given the level of interference the motor is creating, do you think it would be an idea to fit an external capacitor too?
Thanks for your advice on X04 locos, I shall keep a look out for some more in the auctions :-)

User avatar
alex3410
Posts: 3401
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby alex3410 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:31 pm

If your fitting it with dcc then don't add anything other then the chip & your best of removing the existing one when connecting up the chip

This is because the chips have it built in and having an external one could interfere with the dcc chip, I have had it happen a few times with my locos and now if a new one gives me any trouble the first thing I do is remove anything like this.

b308
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm
Location: North Worcs

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby b308 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:29 pm

They usually pick up from the chassis on one side and pickups to the wheels on the other so you'll have fun getting it DCC ready!

User avatar
alex3410
Posts: 3401
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby alex3410 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:43 pm

Insulate both brushes from the rest of the loco and it should be ok so long as the chip is also insulated and does not come into contact with anything metal?

User avatar
Bufferstop
Posts: 12857
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:06 pm

The X04 isn't a real problem, you just slip a new bit of insulation over the bare wire spring. You either need a second bit of bent brass which slips between spring and brush arm, or solder the wires to the tops of the brushes, much less trouble. The chassis remainss live so the decoder needs to be put in a plastic sleeve. If you want to isolate the chassis replace the uninsulated wheels with insulated one and add a second set of pickups, it can all be done with standard parts.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

User avatar
Boxcar Willie
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:33 am
Location: location, location.

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Boxcar Willie » Tue May 05, 2015 11:32 pm

I had huge fun with an old Triang / Hornby 8f I got on E-Bay a few years ago. It barely crawled along but a replacement neo magnet had it galloping around the track faster then a politician sliding down a greasy pole. I don't know how good these new magnets are for the old motors though - a combination of age and neglect might conspire to finally kill an old trooper off. It's be a bit like giving Viagra to a 97 year old.

mahoganydog
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:25 pm
Location: Sat looking at the computer screen

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby mahoganydog » Wed May 06, 2015 10:43 am

Boxcar Willie wrote:I had huge fun with an old Triang / Hornby 8f I got on E-Bay a few years ago. It barely crawled along but a replacement neo magnet had it galloping around the track faster then a politician sliding down a greasy pole. I don't know how good these new magnets are for the old motors though - a combination of age and neglect might conspire to finally kill an old trooper off. It's be a bit like giving Viagra to a 97 year old.


Very minor point but Triang-Hornby didn't actually make an 8F. What they did was relabel the boxes of extant Hornby-Dublo stock and sell them off in 65/66. The model was still branded as Hornby Dublo.

The four 8F's made are: 48158 3 rail, 48109 2 rail, 48073 2 rail Ringfield and lastly the rare one 48094 Ringfield 3 rail.

To confuse matters further there was also Triang-Wrenn but not for very long!

Jim
In a world of fences and doors who needs windows and gates?

Bigmet
Posts: 8234
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Bigmet » Wed May 06, 2015 10:59 am

Boxcar Willie wrote:I had huge fun with an old Triang / Hornby 8f I got on E-Bay a few years ago. It barely crawled along but a replacement neo magnet had it galloping around the track faster then a politician sliding down a greasy pole. I don't know how good these new magnets are for the old motors though - a combination of age and neglect might conspire to finally kill an old trooper off. It's be a bit like giving Viagra to a 97 year old.

Actually more like a heart transplant! The big thing a high field strength magnet does is limit the current the motor draws when running, which significantly reduces the risk of burn out of the armature while running, that much is all to the good. (It does nothing to reduce risk of burn out if the motor is stalled, so there you have to be careful and watch it operating - but that is always true of any simple DC motor.)

If the motor bearings are worn to the point of being slack, the new magnet will accelerate this process; and especially with the very 'gappy' three pole armature design, as the stronger magnet will be more effective in dragging the armature off centre between the poles. A chattering buzz when the motor runs is the typical symptom for this. But new bearings are a cheap spare.

Likewise replace the brushes as required, repolish the commutator if it is scratched, lubricate lightly as required, and the motor will run and run. The materials quality of the insulated wire windings was typically good, and as a result has indefinite life if not overheated, and there's really nothing else likely to go wrong as far as the motor is concerned.

Vonsworld
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: Impressed with my new X04 !

Postby Vonsworld » Wed May 06, 2015 11:52 am

Thanks for your replies.

I've now installed a neo magnet and Lenz Standard DCC decoder and all is running smoothly. The TV interference has stopped since I fitted the decoder, and there was no need to replace the original motor capacitor.

I have also fitted a stay alive capacitor to this loco, since although it runs well over points, when running slowly it kept stalling on every R614/615 crossing. I then discovered that this 4-6-2 loco only has pickups on the front and rear pair of driving wheels, and the spacing of the wheels are such that on the crossing all 4 wheels end up on plastic dead rail at the same time! So no amount of track or wheel cleaning is going to fix that problem.

The capacitor I've used is a 4700uf and it fits snuggly in the front end of the boiler. It probably has enough power to turn the wheels once if the power cuts out, which is enough to take the loco over any dead sections.

So I'm off to look for another X04 repair project now :)


Return to “General Model Railway Discussion / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests