Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

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Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby GWR_fan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:07 am

It seems the ex-S&D 7F locomotives were also used for passenger stock movement in holiday periods in the mid- to late 1950's. Would the dominant coach types be either Bullied or Maunsell or would Stannier or Mk1 cars have also been used? Would ex-GWR coaches be considered?


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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Ex-Pat » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:56 am

The S & D is not my speciality but I do know that ex LNER Gresley, and Thompson coaches would appear. From the photos I have seen there were relatively few GWR coaches in evidence.

Save for buying books & videos and trawling the net (including https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRC ... Stock/info ) then bike2steam may well be your best bet for knowledge in this matter.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Bigmet » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:16 am

Anything but GWR stock! Think about it, this was a through route from the North to the South West coast, avoiding the WR's lines. Through coaches originating from LMR, ER/NER/ScR, and SR. Wherever possible the railway would operate turn and turn about, so on year round scheduled services as Northern allocated coaches came South a balancing service of Southern coaches would go North, and vice versa. It wasn't possible to fully balance in this way during the summer holiday traffic peak, then you would expect a preponderance of LMR, then other Northern regions, stock in the trains.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby bike2steam » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:35 pm

Thanks 'Ex-Pat', coaches from 1956 eh, here goes.
Although rare, exGW coaches were not unknown on the S&D, after the boundary changes in 1958 a few Hawkesworth's were seen on the branch, and the occasional strengthening coach on the Bristol to Bournemouth service, but that was not a 7F working, usually an Eastleigh standard 4 2-6-0 ( 'Pocket Rocket'), which could out-perform a 'Spam-Can' on the more arduous sections of the S&D. Eastern stock was more common, again more so after the boundary changes in 1958, when the exLMS lines in the Sheffield area were transferred to the ER. The Nottingham area of the LMR 'pooled' it's inter-regional stock with Sheffield, so a good many of those originating from Nottingham ( or even Derby) could be ER stock.
Talking of 'inter-regional' stock, there was always at least two sets of stock for each working, one supplied by each of the originating region, for example for the Cleethorpes to Bournemouth working, one would be SR, the other ER. The 'Pines' was an exception as it was all LMR stock, started off as Stanier stock, by 1958 it was mostly Mark 1's running on Commonwealth bogies. Stanier, Gresley, and Thompson coaches gradually became fewer towards 1963, replaced by Mark 1's. Likewise with Southern Region stock Maunsell coaches were gradually replaced by Bulleid.

For reading on this subject, the one book I fully recommend although out of print you can still get copies secondhand is;-
'The District Controllers View, Number 5 Somerset & Dorset - Summer Saturday 1957', by P.Foster, published by Xpress Publications ISBN 1-901056-04-X
Last edited by bike2steam on Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Zunnan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:59 pm

Bigmet and b2s are pretty much spot on. You need to look at the history of the line to see where it lay, it was built jointly by the original S&D which went into receivership and was taken over by the Midland Railway and the London South Western (which became the LMS and Southern railways) with the Midland Railway responsible for the locomotives from 1875. It was always in direct competition with the GWR, and when the route was transferred to the 'enemy' in 1958 its rundown was rapid and closure guaranteed although painfully drawn out. The last thing these engines would ever have hauled in the '50s is GWR stock, that was later and characterises the decline of the route.

As you are looking at '56-'59, predominantly the 7Fs were for slogging freight over the Mendips, but come the summer months they did find use on passenger duty, sometimes as a pilot. Local services used ex-Southern coaches in fixed sets as per the usual Southern region practice, Bulleids and low window Maunsells in 3 or 4 coach sets seems the norm. Longer trains, the Summer Specials, were mostly originating from the Midlands with some coaches added from the North East. Typically this means Stanier coaches (P3 and Portholes if you're looking at RTR) with some trains carrying a handful of Gresleys/Thompsons originating from the Nottingham area or as through portions from Sheffield, York and beyond. A lot of people will say use Mk1 coaches to simplify things, but on the S&D this doesn't work. Even the Mk1 formed trains used company coaches, mainly ex-LMS catering vehicles as the Mk1 catering stock wasn't produced en masse in the 50s, the usual catering facilities were a P3 68' restaurant composite and a P3 open composite (neither available RTR). The 'Pines' had a portion originating from Sheffield, it could just as readily throw up Gresley/Thompson coaches as it could Mk1s and Staniers. A photo of the last Pines to run over the S&D clearly shows two Gresleys at the head of the train. Mk1 catering stock didn't really appear on the route until the 60s, but by then the writing was on the wall and the summer trains were rapidly being routed via Oxford and Reading as the BR(W) policy was to forcibly run the route into ruin. Your best bet would be to try and get your hands on the Hornby set of Maunsell coaches numbered as a S&D 3 set (R4458 if I recall), otherwise inferior models at extortionate prices (the Hornby 68' 12 wheel restaurant) is going to be needed to go with a mix of Staniers and Gresleys.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby glencairn » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:48 pm

The guys above have explained well. Just a bit of info on the 7Fs Their numbers on the S& D line in 1955 were 53800 to 53805 of M.R. Co Derby build and 53806 to 53810 of Stephenson and Co build.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Zunnan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:18 pm

Perhaps something like THIS is what you could aim for as its a lovely modelable sized train with everything available RTR in some guise or suitable alternative. The formation for it is all ex-LMS comprising BSK/CK/SK/SK/CK/BSK. Its a relief 'Pines' approaching Templecombe, sometimes there were so many passengers for the Pines that multiple trains had to run. The leading coach is a Porthole brake second, but a Hornby P3 will do, Bachmanns model is only available in Crimson/Cream...when it arrives. The train does use RTR coach types that aren't available exactly as seen, so perhaps a model representation of the train is best achieved using a mix of whats available from the Hornby P3 Staniers and Bachmann Portholes with that odd stand out coach in the middle represented by an old Mainline LMS coach, much like the real thing really, and using different liveries from each manufacturer to eliminate the varying shades used to depict the same livery. I'd personally model a version of this comprised using a Hornby BSK in Maroon, Bachmann CK in C/C, two Hornby or Bachmann SK (Bachmann using a P1 panelled coach and a Porthole), Bachmann CK in C/C, Hornby BSK in Maroon. The mix of liveries in the train would be very typical of the mid-late 50s and the formation is pretty much correct while the exact coach diagrams aren't.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby glencairn » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:53 pm

I do have a list of most -if not all locomotive classes and numbers of engines running on S&D section 1956 if anyone is interested.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby GWR_fan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:45 pm

Many thanks to all for your detailed responses. It looks like the S&D was a much loved railway to those who cared for it (lesser so to those who had the power to disband it).


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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby bike2steam » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:54 pm

[quote="Zunnan"]
As you are looking at '56-'59, predominantly the 7Fs were for slogging freight over the Mendips, but come the summer months they did find use on passenger duty, sometimes as a pilot.

(pm)On summer Saturdays the only freight on the line was the Templecombe to Bailey Gate 'milkie', otherwise the 7F's were engaged in passenger work, they were never used as 'pilots' but only double-headed on re-positioning to prevent light engines taking up valuable line space off unbalanced workings. BGP shed was hard pushed to keep up with loco demands on a summer Saturday, many times it had to press 'foreign' locos into service.

A lot of people will say use Mk1 coaches to simplify things, but on the S&D this doesn't work. Even the Mk1 formed trains used company coaches, mainly ex-LMS catering vehicles as the Mk1 catering stock wasn't produced en masse in the 50s, the usual catering facilities were a P3 68' restaurant composite and a P3 open composite (neither available RTR).

(pm)Mmmm, interesting seeing as the Pines was the only train to include catering facilities ??

The 'Pines' had a portion originating from Sheffield,


(pm)Not during the summer, a separate train ran from Sheffield for the holiday period.

Mk1 catering stock didn't really appear on the route until the 60s,

(pm)You sure, a mark 1 restaurant car was listed for 1957

BR(W) policy was to forcibly run the route into ruin.

(pm)A contentious issue, so why was the SR in so much of a hurry to rid itself of the line in 1958, and the staff better placed to get another position on the WR ??

http://sdjr.net/

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby GWR_fan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:21 pm

I viewed several Ivor Peters videos to get an idea of operations, but alas, as seems usual with videos, the operator is more interested in the locomotive/s than the coaches following. Other than local working, it seems that ex-LMS stock was more prevalent with Bullieds used on 'tour' specials in the 1960's. Ex-LMS 'portholes' were not plentiful but a few were interspaced in sets of cars.

Of particular interest was the trackplan for Shepton Mallet (Charlton Road). This station seems an ideal track layout for a small model railway with a lot of operating potential. I hope that some one can direct me to a trackplan as the videos leave a lot of items 'in the air' as to where sidings go to in the yards and the purpose of such sidings.

Edit: it seems the sidings on the down line lead to a quarry and stone crushing facility with loading dock.


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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby GWR_fan » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:25 am

GWR_fan wrote:............................................................

Of particular interest was the trackplan for Shepton Mallet (Charlton Road). This station seems an ideal track layout for a small model railway with a lot of operating potential. I hope that some one can direct me to a trackplan as the videos leave a lot of items 'in the air' as to where sidings go to in the yards and the purpose of such sidings.

Edit: it seems the sidings on the down line lead to a quarry and stone crushing facility with loading dock.


Tim



I 'flew over' to Shepton Mallet using Google Earth and was shocked. The Beeching axe had a very destructive edge to it. Apart from the Kilver and Charlton viaducts and overgrown 'right of way' nothing seems to remain. I was hoping to get an idea of the trackplan and industry layout that served the sidings.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Ex-Pat » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:13 am

This any use?

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srx/R367.htm

Edit: Just realised this is not the Charlton Road Station that you require!
Last edited by Ex-Pat on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby bike2steam » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:16 am

GWR_fan wrote:I viewed several Ivor Peters videos to get an idea of operations, but alas, as seems usual with videos, the operator is more interested in the locomotive/s than the coaches following. Other than local working, it seems that ex-LMS stock was more prevalent with Bullieds used on 'tour' specials in the 1960's. Ex-LMS 'portholes' were not plentiful but a few were interspaced in sets of cars.

Of particular interest was the trackplan for Shepton Mallet (Charlton Road). This station seems an ideal track layout for a small model railway with a lot of operating potential. I hope that some one can direct me to a trackplan as the videos leave a lot of items 'in the air' as to where sidings go to in the yards and the purpose of such sidings.

Edit: it seems the sidings on the down line lead to a quarry and stone crushing facility with loading dock.


Tim


Bulleid coaches replaced Maunsell types on the local passenger work during the early 60's. 'Portholes' accounted for less than 10% of LMS period 3 stock, and their appearance on the S&D worked out about the same ratio in Midland stock.
Charlton viaduct, a grade 2 listed structure originally saved in 1966 and looked after by Showerings (Babycham) is now the backdrop ( on one side) of a spectacular garden development.

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Re: Coaches for late BR crest ex-SDJR 7F loco

Postby Zunnan » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:52 am

bike2steam wrote:Mmmm, interesting seeing as the Pines was the only train to include catering facilities ??

You sure, a mark 1 restaurant car was listed for 1957


Fairly sure, and it was 1956 for the Mk1 RU. A lot of the inter regional traffic heading for Bath passed through Bournville, and in the search for train formations for the period 1956 up to closure in early 1960 I have yet to find a photo of the Pines where the position of the catering stock didn't have prominent truss rods showing, indicating a company vehicle. I've trawled through hundreds of photos taken at and around Bournville kindly loaned by people viewing the layout, a good many feature the Pines. The first I could find with a Mk1 catering vehicle was dated Jun '60. One photo that I did find interesting was labelled as an extra from BNS to Bournemouth in August 1961 passing Bournville at 15:23, the fourth coach in the train was clearly an RMB and presumably routed via the S&D at this time. A stock move perhaps, but it was clearly in service judging by the patronage visible aboard.

Just to be a pedant, where a double head is used as a loco move, the lead locomotive is still the pilot with the second termed the train engine.


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