Locoshed Access Signalling

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dougalmac2
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Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby dougalmac2 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:41 pm

Hi All

On Bagnalls Bridge which is loosely based on 5c Stafford , topic

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36782&p=546722#p546722 ,

I have access to the shed via a facing point on what in the prototype was the down slow line. On the original it appears to have been signalled with a ground signal immediately before Stafford No 6 Box. To make a more interesting spectacle (sorry about the pun) I would like to replace this with a semaphore bracketed from a home/distant signal. Can anyone say, please, if this would be an unlikely situation?

Mac
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Bigmet
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby Bigmet » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:18 am

You need a signalling specialist to advise, (which the LMS society certainly have!) if you really want it right. It comes down to how all the possible moves for locos going into the yard had to be signalled. I don't know the layout at Stafford, but if for example the station was just off to the right hand end of your shed diagram then the home signals at the down platform end(s) (the starting signals) might well have had a bracket with a smaller shunt signal for loco yard access to release a loco to the yard only. There would still be the ground signals on the loco yard access too, to allow for other movements like a light engine working 'wrong line' on the down main back to the yard. HTH!

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luckymucklebackit
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby luckymucklebackit » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:09 pm

Yard working would commence once the locomotive coming from the main line has passed over the crossover, so I would signal as shown below, with a shunt bracket from the main line signal as shown
For departures from the yard, a yellow disc signal could be employed, this allows locomotives to work into the headshunt without specific permission from the signalman, the signal would clear only if the crossover was set for the main line

signals.png
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For examples of prototype signalling diagrams try here http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php

Hope this helps

Jim
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My layout - Gateside and Northbridge
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Zunnan
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby Zunnan » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:59 pm

With a facing entry to the yard, a small bracket signal would be more likely. You also will want semaphores protecting the crossover from both directions, as well as one for the reverse movement over the crossover and one for exiting out on to the main line. Each set of points on the running lines (including that leading to the headshunt) will want a ground signal as well as maybe the first set of points on entering the yard. Pointwork within the yard itself doesn't require ground signals, but where loco movements will have an influence on the mainline they almost certainly will have them. It may seem like overkill, but this is a similar setup to that which I am building for Bournville shed, based on BR(M) practice and original signalling diagrams, the only difference is that mine enters the shed via a trailing connection. The image attached is how I'd signal your plan.
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dougalmac2
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby dougalmac2 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:33 pm

Thanks for those answers guys, You've told me all I wanted to know.

On the side - I was very pleased with your responses. For some reason I had decided to try this question on a different forum as I had just been a lurker on there, 8 days later - no reply. So won't bother with that one again, although I might still lurk.

Thanks again and have a great Christmas, Mac

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stuartp
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby stuartp » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:24 pm

Possibly because any suggestion on there would have been shot down by one of the resident signalling experts, or degenerated into a slanging match while they argue amongst themselves who's dad is the biggest. Mere mortals rarely post suggestions any more, see some of the other "how do I signal this ?" threads below yours for examples.

FWIW I would have suggested more or less the same as Luckymucklebackit had he not beaten me to it. There's always more than one way to skin any particular signalbox cat but that one is elegantly simple.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

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bike2steam
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby bike2steam » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:10 am

dougalmac2 wrote: For some reason I had decided to try this question on a different forum as I had just been a lurker on there, 8 days later - no reply. So won't bother with that one again, although I might still lurk.

Thanks again and have a great Christmas, Mac


Yeah, I saw it, but it would have been helpful to have the diagram, I'd go for the same as 'luckymucklewhatshisface' :).

dougalmac2
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby dougalmac2 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:28 pm

Hi Guys

Stuartp - It does seem the way you said, but I shall continue browsing there as ther is a lot of good stuff on the forum.

bike2steam - point taken but as all I was looking for was really 'yes you could do it that way' I though, at the time, a description would be enough. We keep learning all the time, even at my age. :wink:

I agree with you both on luckymucklebackits plan but obviously I would still need the ground signals for the crossover.

Mac

tony220744
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby tony220744 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:36 pm

A semaphore signal in the 'off' position indicates that the line is clear to the next signal. Whereas a 'shunt' or 'ground' signal in the 'off' position is an indication to the driver that he might proceed as far as he can see the line is clear. In this case there might be further shunt signals or there might not. There is a situation where you can have a semaphore signal and that would be where the signal arm has a white 'S' on it. Finally, if there is more than one route available, the shunt signals are stacked vertically. The top one is the most left hand route, the next one down the next route to the right, etcetera. I would suggest that a plain semaphore into your yard would not be correct. Hope this is helpful.

tony220744
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby tony220744 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:37 pm

A semaphore signal in the 'off' position indicates that the line is clear to the next signal. Whereas a 'shunt' or 'ground' signal in the 'off' position is an indication to the driver that he might proceed as far as he can see the line is clear. In this case there might be further shunt signals or there might not. There is a situation where you can have a semaphore signal and that would be where the signal arm has a white 'S' on it. Finally, if there is more than one route available, the shunt signals are stacked vertically. The top one is the most left hand route, the next one down the next route to the right, etcetera. I would suggest that a plain semaphore into your yard would not be correct. Hope this is helpful.

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stuartp
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby stuartp » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:25 pm

In the circumstances described by the OP a miniature semaphore arm (as drawn by Luckymucklebackit) indicates exactly the same as a ground disc - proceed as far as the line is clear. Either is correct but for a facing movement off a running line I would suggest a miniature arm (1/3 size) would be more likely.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

tony220744
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Re: Locoshed Access Signalling

Postby tony220744 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:42 pm

Yes Stuart. You are probably right, this being an LMS scenario as against a GWR one that I am more familiar with where large 4ft arms are for passenger lines and the 3ft arms are for goods only lines.. But both signify the line is clear to the next signal. I've seen the minature arms you refer to, on the Severn Valley I think, and guessed that they might be the LMS version of ground or shunt signals. But I think we agree that main line semaphores would not be appropriate to signal locos into the shed roads on the layout we are discussing here. Thanks for your input.


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