The Strategic Reserve

Discuss model railway topics and news that do not fit into other sections.
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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:43 am

but it was still there !! even run down ,in small pockets , and distributed it was still far in excess of what could be achieved by one or two relatively small underground locations

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:50 am

I look at it this way , if I was a military commander or government , where would I want assets ??? would I want them in one easy to knock out strike location ?? or would I want them dotted far and wide all around the country so if one was knocked out by an attack it scarcely made a difference !!

whilst at the same time instantly in the required location and useable without having to wait for them being put in service and delivered ( if indeed possible depending on network bomb damage )

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Bufferstop
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:56 am

All right lads you've had a subtle warning - personal attacks are off limits -
Shame it could have been a damn good discussion and might have even thrown up some evidence of where the stories originated - My money would be on the hurried return to Steam when the transformers in the Glasgow Blue Trains started exploding within days of the service starting.

Now all go away and make like the recent high winds - Calm down. If you want the discussion to continue post some documentary evidence in a new thread. Do remember that some of us are old enough to have been there in the 60s which is the only time when there would have been sufficient spare steam locos to make it feasible.

John W
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Bufferstop
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:55 am

OK guys everyone's had 24 hours, out time to revisit the topic if you still want to. Lets set some ground rules and see if we can all stick to them-

1)If you make an assertion (state something as fact) quote or link to the evidence, or be prepared to do so if challenged.
2)If you want to support someone's argument do it by providing additional evidence
3)Don't attack the writer attack his evidence
4)Normal rules on language and libellous statements apply.
and be polite about it
a good argument supported by fact is a great mental exercise, if you just want a shouting match go somewhere else.
I'm taking this on as me not one of the mods. I'll only act on here as a mod if it gets out of hand, in which case I'll have to delete the thread. OK go.

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pointstaken
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby pointstaken » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:12 am

Strategic Reserve = Railway spending money you haven't told the wife about !

Dennis
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Bufferstop wrote:...a good argument supported by fact is a great mental exercise, if you just want a shouting match go somewhere else.
I'm taking this on as me not one of the mods. I'll only act on here as a mod if it gets out of hand, in which case I'll have to delete the thread. OK go.



Thanks John. With that in mind, I'll say this - I'm not saying the Reserve did or didnt exist; therefore I'm not interested in proving it one way or the other. Indeed, by the very nature of the subject that's not possible. I'd like to think it could have existed, even if only for a short time, but my principal interest is in debating hows and whys.

With that in mind:

tornado64 wrote:but it was still there !! even run down ,in small pockets , and distributed it was still far in excess of what could be achieved by one or two relatively small underground locations


tornado64 wrote:I look at it this way , if I was a military commander or government , where would I want assets ??? would I want them in one easy to knock out strike location ?? or would I want them dotted far and wide all around the country so if one was knocked out by an attack it scarcely made a difference !!

whilst at the same time instantly in the required location and useable without having to wait for them being put in service and delivered ( if indeed possible depending on network bomb damage )


Tornado, your arguments here seem to be predicated on assumptions; they're certainly not based on anything that I've introduced to the debate. Nobody said anything about 'one or two' locations, or that they had to be 'relatively small'. For all we know, there could have been pockets all around the UK, large, small or middling-sized; just because we talk of *the* strategic reserve, it doesnt follow that it had to be all in one place.

I reiterate: nothing you've said so far has proven that a reserve couldn't have existed.

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:28 pm

but then the opposite side is only based on presumptions as well isn't it ?? and it is fair to say nothing the opposing view can provide can prove it did !! I'd say it is fair to say that my view would be the most likely but romanticism and mythology can get in the way of what would probably be the realistic and cost efficient option

given that the 50 yrs hush up on official secrets is now up I have no doubt whatsoever you would have definite proof if it had existed in fact many from the military etc would have spoken about it

if steam railways were such an important cold war asset why did longmoor close during the cold war ??

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:48 pm

also lets look at the supposed electro magnetic pulse idea from nuclear weapons , electro magnetic pulse only effected solid state electronics ( no diesels of that period had solid state electronics ) therefore the diesels were more than useable in a nuclear war environment !

the two main problems would be overhead electrics being felled on electric lines or supplies of fuel oils for diesels running out

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby luckymucklebackit » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:17 pm

tornado64 wrote:also lets look at the supposed electro magnetic pulse idea from nuclear weapons , electro magnetic pulse only effected solid state electronics ( no diesels of that period had solid state electronics ) therefore the diesels were more than useable in a nuclear war environment !

the two main problems would be overhead electrics being felled on electric lines or supplies of fuel oils for diesels running out


Which would have been quick to happen, the 13 major refineries and oil storage facilities would have been high priority for conventional or nuclear strikes, once they were gone the supplies of fuel would have been exhausted in a very short time indeed.

Jim
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pete12345
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby pete12345 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:12 pm

I guess steam locos have the advantage in a fuel shortage as you can theoretically throw any combustible solid (cutting down a forest in an emergency?) into the firebox and it will go. Granted, it might not run as well as on coal but it's still more fuel-flexible than a diesel.
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:39 pm

tornado64 wrote:but then the opposite side is only based on presumptions as well isn't it ??


It's not about the presumptions as such, it's the way they've been used here. The only presumptions supporting your argument that I have questioned are those you have voiced yourself. On the other hand, you have tried to defeat my argument by undermining claims that I have not made. That is what's known as a 'straw man fallacy', and it's not really cricket.

and it is fair to say nothing the opposing view can provide can prove it did !!


Absolutely, which is why I said I wasnt really interested in proving it either way. Maybe I'm not so bothered about needing to be right all the time? But hey, let's not talk in terms of sides, a bit of open-mindedness will produce a more enjoyable debate.

if steam railways were such an important cold war asset why did longmoor close during the cold war ??


You need to consider a finer focus on the timescales involved. By the time Longmoor closed, other preservation sites were well established - I've already said that I accept that by say 1980, the growth of the preservation movement would have lessened the need for a hidden reserve.

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bike2steam
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby bike2steam » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:52 pm

It's interesting how some can get a little hot under the collar over a fanciful myth that somehow has perpetuated itself for more than 40 years, from a secluded tunnel in the Scottish Highlands, to a secret building belonging to the SAS in Herefordshire. If you want to believe in fairy stories - then carry on my son, but excuse me while I laugh :lol: .
Oh by the way, the Longmoor site closed because the MoD could make more money selling it for development.

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pete » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:51 pm

Hi

Just a point of detail, but

also lets look at the supposed electro magnetic pulse idea from nuclear weapons , electro magnetic pulse only effected solid state electronics ( no diesels of that period had solid state electronics ) therefore the diesels were more than useable in a nuclear war environment !


Actually discrete devices such as transistors would also be affected by the EMP or transient radiation electrical effect (TREE), it's a real effect not a 'supposed' effect that suggests it might not happen. It's one of the reasons (apart from the fallout) that nuclear testing was switched to underground testing. That said because of the packing of devices on ICs they are obviously more susceptible.

If you're interested (and it is probably more interesting than speculating about diesels :D ) in the 'evidence' you could start with the Compton effect, Arthur Compton received a Nobel prize for his work sometime in the 1920s which pre-dates somewhat the Atomic bomb programmes of the 40s/50s.

Pete
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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:52 pm

the trams from downtown Hiroshima , epicentre of the blast still work and did so straight after the blast !!

http://transpressnz.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/hiroshima-tram-japan-after-atomic-bomb.html

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rogue
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby rogue » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:12 pm

Tsk!, I only mentioned the SSR as an example of a fantasy layout and wanted to hear of any other fantasy layouts done. I don't expect THIS! :roll: :lol:


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