The Strategic Reserve

Discuss model railway topics and news that do not fit into other sections.
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Bufferstop
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:11 pm

I think the talk of a strategic reserve came about because of something that happened before the end of steam in 1968. One of the numerous diesel fiascos which took place with monotonous regularity in the 60s requiring one or other of the classes to be taken out of service, meant borrowing back a whole load of locos just delivered to Cashmore's scrap yard. After scrubbing of "Scrap" and "Cond" they were then despatched to places that hadn't seen them before. When asked where they had come from, embarrassed managers told their staff they were from the reserve held in case of such incidents, rather than admitting "we had to beg them back from Cashmores." A sneaky bit of spinning that planted the seeds of an urban myth. A fitter I knew was dispatched to Cashmores yard to pick the ones needing the least work to return them to service. One or two of them came back with a half load of coal in the tender, which makes me think it happened in the summer, as any other time that would have been cleaned out and spirited away as soon as they arrived.
John W
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PS those comments on the previous page make me realise it's not only cats, dogs and students, who get fractious in windy weather. Hopefully calm is now restored.
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Lysander
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Lysander » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:59 pm

The issue of the 'Strategic Reserve' crops up with some frequency in all sorts of fora from time-to-time. The number who comment that they knew a chap who, 'when I were a kid', got taken to see the huge reserve stored in underground sidings in Box Tunnel is well, not innumerable, but requires several sets of fingers to count. There was a siding there, but it was for the underground quarry.

It's all a bit like the other great myth supporting the strategic reserve, the hundreds of railway platforms under which vast coal stores were placed for use in case of natural disaster. But it's all a great secret and the Government denies it.

What I love most of all about these entertaining tales is the absolute certainty of some that their raconteur was absolutely reliable and the story was, without any doubt, true.

Long live the urban myth !

Tony
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:39 am

tornado64 wrote:in the biggest part it is all myths , why bother keeping a strategic reserve when woodhams and preservationists had a large enough one already and with plans readily available to start production again if necessary


It's a question of timing. A strategic reserve wouldnt make sense now, nor at any time in the last 30 years or so - but when it was popularly supposed to exist, the preservation movement was in its infancy, and wouldnt have been considered a reliable source. Not to mention that most of the cr*p that was in Woodhams yard in the '70s needed a lot of work to make it usable.

as for the other , how in reality would you lose a loco ??? there were probably cases of those kept at the bottom of a yard for spares etc , but completely forgotten ??? even an 0-6-0 jinty is hardly loseable


[non-political comment] The government of this country is *quite* capable of hiding anything it wants to, particularly if it's connected with national security. Much bigger things than Jintys have been hidden away.

PanzerJohn wrote:If there had been a strategic reserve there would have been no steam orientated infrastructure left to enable to run them.


Coal and water - basic commodities, relatively easy to deliver. Maybe not in as organised a fashion as the steam sheds we once knew, but in an emergency, hardly an insuperable problem to overcome.

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby D605Eagle » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:05 am

Bufferstop wrote:I think the talk of a strategic reserve came about because of something that happened before the end of steam in 1968. One of the numerous diesel fiascos which took place with monotonous regularity in the 60s requiring one or other of the classes to be taken out of service, meant borrowing back a whole load of locos just delivered to Cashmore's scrap yard. After scrubbing of "Scrap" and "Cond" they were then despatched to places that hadn't seen them before. When asked where they had come from, embarrassed managers told their staff they were from the reserve held in case of such incidents, rather than admitting "we had to beg them back from Cashmores." A sneaky bit of spinning that planted the seeds of an urban myth. A fitter I knew was dispatched to Cashmores yard to pick the ones needing the least work to return them to service. One or two of them came back with a half load of coal in the tender, which makes me think it happened in the summer, as any other time that would have been cleaned out and spirited away as soon as they arrived.
John W
aka Bufferstop

PS those comments on the previous page make me realise it's not only cats, dogs and students, who get fractious in windy weather. Hopefully calm is now restored.

That's actually a very twisted story. The truth behind it was in the winter of 61/62 due to the whole country freezing up railways became the only means of transport still operating. Several hundred miles of closed railways were hurredly brought back into use. There was a terrific shortage of traction because of this and a good few locos were pulled from scraplines and Cashmores provided a few. It had nothing to do with the reliability of the diesel locos that were replacing steam at the time.

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:02 am

Terrier wrote:Don't rise to it Rogue, sadly, some people only seem to be able to maintain their own sense of self-worth by putting others down. I for example have refrained from commenting on one particular thread, as i believe the ego of the said individual would take quite a knock. :wink:

Chris P


don't get ya whatsoever !! is it A.. a fact that if something isn't modelled directly off the prototype it is ficticious therefore fantasy or B..everything we build is reality !!

far from trying to put anyone down I am blunt about the reality of situations !!

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:13 am

ok look at it this way , the worst possible thing you can do to any sort of vehicle is to store it without being run , the second would be to store it underground any vehicle is better off stored outside with no cover than underground , they would need to be ready to go at a moments notice for the given situation , stored underground without being run would require an enormous amount of re commissioning before they could move

what if the tunnel entrance was covered due to bomb damage ??

therefore it would make more sense to keep them running and have them spread around the country rather than in one location !! isn't that what dai woodham did and the preservation societies ??

the strategic steam reserve is right under your noses without you even realising it !!

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:28 am

tornado64 wrote:[... I am blunt about the reality of situations !!


I think we noticed. Thing is, we all have our own reality, and most of us accept there's more than one way of looking at things.

tornado64 wrote:ok look at it this way , the worst possible thing you can do to any sort of vehicle is to store it without being run ,


Just like the Green Goddesses then. Or the hundreds, or probably thousands, of other military vehicles that are (or were) kept mothballed for possible emergency use. Acceptedly a steam loco isnt quite the same as an i/c powered vehicle, but I believe it would still be possible to keep them oiled up and ready to be steamed in fairly short order.

what if the tunnel entrance was covered due to bomb damage ??


:roll:

I imagine secret storage facilities would be designed with more than one exit.

I believe the Box Tunnel connection arose because there was actually a Government facility there during WW2, with its own narrow gauge railway. Had a Strategic Reserve actually existed, it doesnt follow that it *must* have been there; there are plenty of other possibilities.

therefore it would make more sense to keep them running and have them spread around the country rather than in one location !! isn't that what dai woodham did and the preservation societies ??


I believe I've already dealt with that point. The Strategic Reserve, had it existed, would have pre-dated the preservation movement as we know it.

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:57 am

mmmmmm a steam strategic reserve pre dating preservationists ???? errr that would be British railways then wouldn't it ??

green godesses mostly were redeployed from service on MOD bases so technicaly were pretty much still in service even when in storage they were well maintained and regularly road tested

if you had done that with a steam reserve the location would be no secret !!
Last edited by tornado64 on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:04 am

tornado64 wrote:mmmmmm a steam strategic reserve pre dating preservationists ???? errr that would be British railways then wouldn't it ??


Are you being deliberately obtuse, or just trying to twist my words?

I said the preservation movement as we know it. The Strategic Reserve would have arisen in the early to mid '60s - yes, there were a few preserved locos and railways before that, but they were in their infancy.


By the way, you dont add any weight to your arguments by using multiple exclamation marks or question marks on everything.

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:12 am

wasn't br running steam up till 1968 , and colleries etc were running steam well into the 70s in fact agecroft was running steam well into the 1980s

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:13 am

tornado64 wrote:wasn't br running steam up till 1968 , and colleries etc were running steam well into the 70s in fact agecroft was running steam well into the 1980s


And your point is?

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tornado64
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby tornado64 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:30 am

why on earth would a steam reserve be needed ?? especialy when the national railway was still running it distributed all over the UK and many other sources were readily available

lets look at it from warefare tactics learned from WW1 it was learned that digging in made you unable to mobilise or move and had you stuck in one area it was learned that you fight more efficiently by being free and able to move around

then look at it from the warefare tactics of the time it was no coincidence why RAF leeming and fylingdales were where they were !! it was the closest point to intercept incoming missiles or tuplovev bear recce aircraft ( yes they did recce missions over us most were intercepted but I have no doubt some got through that were hushed up ) and locations like suggested steam reserves would be exacly what they wanted to see
Last edited by tornado64 on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby luckymucklebackit » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:34 am

There is a strategic reserve, it is there hidden in plain sight, hundreds of steam locomotives in working order ready to be called into use in the event of the balloon going up, they are carefully dispersed throughout the country so not to be destroyed by enemy action. Somewhere in a Whitehall filing cabinet will be a standing order to requisition each and every preserved locomotive and call them into action if all other means of traction is wiped out, extreme lack of oil or electricity supplies wiped out by electromagnetic pulse!

As regards "lost" locomotives, it would have been very easy for a locomotive to disappear, scrap merchants did not see a loco as an entity, just as a tonnage of scrap ferrous or non-ferrous metal, and most steam locos had lost their front number plate and the cab side number was almost illegible, a good example of this was 45208, which many observers noted as being scrapped at Campbells yard in Airdrie, but Peter Hands' book "What happened to Steam" recorded as being scrapped at T.W.Ward, Killamarsh Sheffield, it was sctually 45028 that was scrapped at Campbells. Then there was the famous story of 71000 Duke of Gloucester, which was accidentally sent initially to the wrong scrapyard (Cashmore's in Newport) instead of Barry, it is unlikely that the loco would exist today had that error not been corrected!!

Jim
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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby Pennine MC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:36 am

tornado64 wrote:why on earth would a steam reserve be needed ?? especialy when the national railway was still running it distributed all over the UK and many other sources were readily available


By 1965/66 BR steam was increasingly in relatively localised pockets; it certainly wasnt 'distributed all over the UK'. By 1967 it was definitely on the way out and the run down condition of the surviving locos would have been laughed at by the MoD. As for industrial locos, are you seriously suggesting that a few dozen 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 tanks could have done the work of the 8Fs and 9Fs reputed to have formed the Reserve?

then look at it from the warefare tactics of the time it was no coincidence why RAF leeming and fylingdales were where they were !! it was the closest point to intercept incoming missiles or tuplovev bear recce aircraft ( yes they did recce missions over us ) and locations like suggested steam reserves would be exacly what they wanted to see


Yup, I'm aware of the Bear and its visits (and btw the manufacturer is Tupolev). Again, what's your point?

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Re: The Strategic Reserve

Postby rogue » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:41 am

tornado64 wrote:
Terrier wrote:Don't rise to it Rogue, sadly, some people only seem to be able to maintain their own sense of self-worth by putting others down. I for example have refrained from commenting on one particular thread, as i believe the ego of the said individual would take quite a knock. :wink:

Chris P


don't get ya whatsoever !! is it A.. a fact that if something isn't modelled directly off the prototype it is ficticious therefore fantasy or B..everything we build is reality !!

far from trying to put anyone down I am blunt about the reality of situations !!


I know what you are saying but I made it clear in my first couple of posts that I was referring to a more fantastical layout than just a imaginary branch line or whatever. I gave harry potter as an example. :)


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