Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

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NEvans
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Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby NEvans » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:34 pm

Very basic questions, and you're probablly saying you cant see why they need asking, but thats only if you know the answer (there is however some thick buggers out there and we don't know all the answers) and I'm sure theres a lot more waiting to be asked by other thick buggers.

I have a couple of Mk1 Maroon Open Coaches pulled by a Two-Tone Green Diesel. Just been given a Mk1 Suburban Compartment Crimson Coach (nice man santa but not quite right). Together it doesn't quite look right but would you have seen them around?

I have a goods rake, mixture of coal plank and steel mineral wagons. Santa also delivered a couple of cattle wagons. Is it ok to add them and class it as mixed frieght? Maybe adding a couple of tank wagons and vans might be the answer.

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Bigmet
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby Bigmet » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:38 pm

You can run those combinations on the 'steam era' railway, and that includes the green diesel period; it wasn't until well into the BR corporate blue period that most of steam age practise was eliminated.

Freight was a complete mash up. Everything - almost - is possible in a train.

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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby Metadyneman » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:12 am

..and to add to what Bigmet has said. You could still feasibly see mixed Mk1 open coaches with compartment suburbans and a green diesel on just about any of the smaller preserved railways today. There really is a prototype for everything.
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Boxcar Willie
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby Boxcar Willie » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:18 am

A couple of the magazines have featured railtours with locos pulling nothing but a rake of brake vans.

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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby GarrettTheThief » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:18 am

I think as somebody mentioned that freight trains can commonly be complete mashups. Even today, I see many unit trains through Loughborough and Leicester, but I see mixed freight too, including the same kind of trailer with different brands. If you're building a distribution train then seriously, the rake can be whatever you like. I'm considering running a couple of ferry vans and a few coal hopper wagons with mine.

When loco-hauled trains were common and Mk2F coaches were in operation, radical formations were often used. Mk1/Mk2A first and second class coaches, brake cars and Mk1/Mk2A/Mk3 buffet cars were frequently run with the Mk2D/E/F first class and second class cars with mixed liveries. It's a common sight at Birmingham New Street in the late 80s (mixing and matching of this kind seemed more common on the Cross Country route) and though it may look a bit odd, a formation like that is certainly prototypical.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby NEvans » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:09 am

Maybe its todays rules and regulations but I could imagine there's regulations about the transport of cattle and horses. Also them on what I would class as fast freight, while coal I would see as on their own trains, although I suppose you would also see them on mixed freight.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby 6C » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:47 am

NEvans wrote:Maybe its todays rules and regulations but I could imagine there's regulations about the transport of cattle and horses. Also them on what I would class as fast freight, while coal I would see as on their own trains, although I suppose you would also see them on mixed freight.


Block trains (of one product) where much rarer in those days - coal and oil spring to mind for industrial use - but not much else.
Block trains of cattle did run between the larger locations but many were placed in fast fitted freights - always just behind the engine - for the driver and fireman to 'keep an eye' on the livestock and also to provide extra braking power if part of the train was unfitted (i.e. unbraked)
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby Bigmet » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:01 am

NEvans wrote: ...class it as mixed freight...

The steam age railway didn't have that concept! Freight trains could carry near anything, but there were some rules to be aware of.

First relates to braking. To move freight fast, required that at least some of the wagons in the train have the continuous brake; these wagons were generally in brown under the big four and BR. As already mentioned cattle wagons were continuously braked, and always to be marshalled next the engine when loaded with livestock. Unloaded or carrying something else, they can go anywhere in a train: BR had lost almost all its cattle traffic by the 1960s, road transport was just so much more flexible for this type of load. Cattle wagons were then much used as well ventilated vans for fresh vegetables as a result.

Unfitted wagons were in grey. Trains of such wagons without continuous brake moved slowly, the limitation being not the locos ability to pull them fast, but the brake power available to stop the train within signal sighting distances. In some places that meant the train could only move at walking pace: this was the typical slow mineral - most commonly coal - drag hauled by an eight or ten coupled heavy goods. On many routes the operators would add other traffic to a coal drag going the right way, if the load wasn't already at the rated capacity of the loco for the route. Another restriction to be aware of: tanks with low flash point loads had red solebars, these and explosives wagons had to have about five 'barrier wagons' between them and a steam loco, to reduce the risk of fire with the explosions and the pain and the hurting...

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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby TK421 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:38 am

As for the mk 1's anything that wasn't classed as an express could see corridor and non corridor coaches in the train. An example of a combination was at Bournemouth west, the practice there to get coaches from the sidings to the station was the signalman would set the route and the shunter would then release the brakes on the coaches. The coaches would roll down the gradient from the sidings to the station and the shunter would walk through the train to the other end to pin down the brakes. However one day the shunter was caught out as he walked through the train, which was in a nice roll towards the station, he opened a corridor door to see a non corridor coach slap bang in the middle of the train. Needless to say the platform needed a new bufferstop.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby NEvans » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:55 am

Thanks, interesting replies.

As no one else has asked another question heres one; were guards vans ever deliberately placed in other places rather than at the ends of trains?
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby GarrettTheThief » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:23 am

It's not a rare sight to see brake vans in the middle of a formation (though with Mk3 coaches, I don't think I've ever seen the Trailer Guard Second in a HST or loco-hauled train anywhere besides one end), and you may even get more than one.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby luckymucklebackit » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:05 am

NEvans wrote:Thanks, interesting replies.

As no one else has asked another question heres one; were guards vans ever deliberately placed in other places rather than at the ends of trains?


I take it by "guards vans" you are referring to half or full brake passenger stock. and if so the answer is a resounding yes. Examples would be on the Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh line, where the Full Brake (BG) was the centre coach of the five coach formation, so that the loading and unloading of parcels could be carried out adjacent to the station building.

Example:
Image

Half brakes (BSK) could also end up mid formation when the train was made up from portions from multiple destinations.

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NEvans
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby NEvans » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:58 am

luckymucklebackit wrote:I take it by "guards vans" you are referring to half or full brake passenger stock. and if so the answer is a resounding yes.
Jim

Actually it wasn't, I was thinking of brake vans (I knew what I meant even if no one else did). Typing at that time of night shows not thinking that clearly. But yes also an interesting fact that Garrett and yourself replied to. Nice picture as well.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby TK421 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Brake vans could be found in the middle of the train but i'm sure there would always be one on the rear of the train, I'm not aware of any cases in which there wasn't a brake van on the rear of the train but I could be wrong.
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Re: Correct Protocol - Simple if you know the answer!

Postby stuartp » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:44 pm

Passenger brake vans: - The rules on the position of these varied over the years and between companies, usually being expressed in terms of the number of axles allowed behind the brake. Up to the early BR period you would typically find a brake compartment at each end of a longer train (say 3 or more coaches), by the blue/grey period the rule had been relaxed to 'must have a brake compartment somewhere in the consist'. On shorter trains, especially on branch lines, the brake compartment was often turned towards the middle of the train to make sure it was always platformed at shorter platforms.

Goods brake vans: - on an unfitted or partly fitted train the last vehicle will always be a goods brake (there were local exceptions but lets keep things broad for now). On a fully fitted train prior to 1967 the last vehicle would normally be a fitted or piped brake van (so the guard could apply the train brakes in an emergency) but a number of vehicles could be added behind the brake provided they too were fitted. The usual example given is the 'Blue Spot' fish trains where vans were added behind the brake en route to avoid having to remarshall the train every time. After 1967 goods brakes largely disappeared on fully fitted goods trains and the guard rode in the back cab of the loco.

Extra goods brake vans could be deliberately marshalled at the front of the train if the train was required to reverse or propel en route, it saved running round.

Something seen occasionally but not often modelled is an intermediate brake van in a goods train. These were nearly always 'spare' brakes being returned to main yards where there was an imbalance of traffic. Goods brakes were tracked by Control, the 'modellerism' of a spare brake van sitting in a country goods yard just in case is just that - a modellerism. If anyone has been lucky enough to see 'Culreoch' at an exhibition Jamie Wood has included spare brakes in one of his goods trains as they were a feature of the line Culreoch is based on. There was a lot more traffic heading west to Ireland along that route than there was heading east, so Stranraer tended to accumulate brake vans. Many pictures of eastbound trains show one or two intermediate brakes heading back towards Dumfries and Carlisle, they were marshalled wherever in the train was convenient to the shunter at Stranraer.
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