vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

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meehow
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:57 pm

vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby meehow » Sun May 09, 2021 10:25 am

as i just burnt out my beautiful, new old stock

Walthers PROTO 1000 Diesel EMD GP15-1 Union Pacific DCC ready
Image
https://www.walthers.com/proto-1000-diesel-emd-gp15-1-powered-union-pacific-r-716-yard-scheme-farr-air-filters

i wanted to ask, if it is safe to run modern locomotives of vintage controllers like HM or minipack etc. ?

i guess that the locomotives with no electronics should be fine?

another question: i think, that it is unlikely that the motor has burned out, so will it be OK to wire the pickups directly to motor bypassing the electronics?

i have already gutted a DCC bachmann and it's running very well without the pcb board.

finally: can replace the PCB with a generic one?

Bigmet
Posts: 8366
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby Bigmet » Sun May 09, 2021 3:56 pm

Cannot tell you anything very useful from the information provided. Do you know that the controller is functioning as it should? What exactly burnt out on the model? Does the motor run normally if given a 12V DC supply from another source?

In principle a 12V DC controller will operate a loco with a 12V DC motor. I use a fifty year old H&M 'Duette' to test current model purchases ahead of decoder fitting, and have never had any trouble, but I know that this controller is working as it should.

I have also seen electronic components and assemblies in several model locos burn out while being properly operated, that's low cost components all over.

meehow
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:57 pm

Re: vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby meehow » Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Bigmet wrote:Cannot tell you anything very useful from the information provided. Do you know that the controller is functioning as it should? What exactly burnt out on the model? Does the motor run normally if given a 12V DC supply from another source?

In principle a 12V DC controller will operate a loco with a 12V DC motor. I use a fifty year old H&M 'Duette' to test current model purchases ahead of decoder fitting, and have never had any trouble, but I know that this controller is working as it should.

I have also seen electronic components and assemblies in several model locos burn out while being properly operated, that's low cost components all over.


I measured output from the vintage minipack and it is between 0.5V and 15V
I also run an old lima loco on it for good 30 minutes with heavy load to pull - no issues.
Previously, the walthers was running perfect (a bit slow) on a modern plastic Hornby controller.
After 5 minutes on the minipack - it's dead. It was very jerky towards the last seconds of it's performance. Last breath? ;-) Now, even from a 9V battery no response (power to wheels only as have not opened the loco yet).

Hence my question.
I am not so much bothered by the fault as convinced that I can 'fix it' one way or another.
Just don't want to cause problems to my other new/DCC locos.

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Bufferstop
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Re: vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby Bufferstop » Mon May 10, 2021 8:21 pm

The Duettes were pretty basic controllers, a 14-16V AC transformer, a rehostat and reversing switch. The only additions being a half wave/full wave selector, and a hi/lo resistance switch on some versions. Apart from using its highest outputs on half wave with small cordless motors they shouldn't do much harm to any loco. I'd look to see if there was a problem with the loco, maybe mechanical causing it to draw more current than it should. I would however be wary of running DCC fitted locos on DC before you know how they have been set up.
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Bigmet
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Re: vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby Bigmet » Tue May 11, 2021 11:15 am

Bufferstop wrote:The Duettes were pretty basic controllers, a 14-16V AC transformer, a rheostat and reversing switch. The only additions being a half wave/full wave selector, and a hi/lo resistance switch on some versions...

...and a customer specifiable selection of resistance mats. The influence of the club in encouraging realistic scale speed operation led to me having higher resistance mats installed. These will start past and current coreless motors with a creep into and out of dead slow motion, at between 5 to 10% of the available travel. (It's not in original condition internally, the 'half wave' is disabled to prevent accidental use. Small children - certainly up to the age of 80 - do so like to fiddle...)

I have probably bored on about this before, but it is an excellent tool for assessing mechanism performance ahead of decoder fitting. There's no assistance in the way of feedback to mask any lack of smoothness or cyclic variation in the mechanism. If the mechanism is a good smooth runner at dead slow on this DC supply, performance with a good DCC decoder will be superb.

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Bufferstop
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Re: vintage controllers VS modern locomotives

Postby Bufferstop » Tue May 11, 2021 8:18 pm

I had one which had a screwdriver operated switch for changing the resistance range, but I flogged it and bought a pair of the "variable transformer" Minor units which could be modified with a large electrolytic capacitor across the output from the bridge rectifier ahead of the reversing switch. Probably the best you could do before the advent of power transistors. The need for the specially constructed transformer made them uneconomic to produce once you could get similar performance from off the shelf solid state devices.
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