How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

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Mountain
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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:05 am

Welded track? What scale will the model be?

I use Peco code 100 rails soldered onto sleepers I cut from printed circuit board but I model in 7mm scale.

Daniel
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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Daniel » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:29 am

Mountain wrote:Welded track? What scale will the model be?

I use Peco code 100 rails soldered onto sleepers I cut from printed circuit board but I model in 7mm scale.


I know a modeller used for his 1/32 and Gn15 modeling code 100 rail directly spiked on a flat playwood baseboard, Very usefull, time and work sparing if you want embeded track.

(Sorry, my lone brain cell can't recall his name now.)

Daniel

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:12 pm

Daniel wrote:
Mountain wrote:Welded track? What scale will the model be?

I use Peco code 100 rails soldered onto sleepers I cut from printed circuit board but I model in 7mm scale.


I know a modeller used for his 1/32 and Gn15 modeling code 100 rail directly spiked on a flat playwood baseboard, Very usefull, time and work sparing if you want embeded track.

(Sorry, my lone brain cell can't recall his name now.)

Daniel


I tried that on my 7mm narrow gauge layout before I used soldered track. Trying to get the rail height all level on such a small oval with rails that spring in all directions if not "Tamed" was what I found to be an impossibility on my small layout design, which back then was an oval on just a single 2ft x 3 1/2ft board.

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:16 pm

I hope that I am making correct attribution in my attempts to reduce reply-space.

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:01 pm
Bufferstop » Well, yes, especially the “Fairfax Manor Incline Railroad” with only one car. More tradeoffs. A one-car system uses rail no more complex that a single length of track, no points etc., but then it possibly requires some sort of counterweight to offset the mechanical energy required to drag the rake of empty wagons back to the top of the incline.[/quote]

I thought of “one track” as being simpler than two, I mean, it’s only one track, right? Then the counterweight reared, in a manner of speaking, its ugly head. A counter-weight is just a cheap and ugly substitute for another counterweight in the form of a second weathered ore-tub, right?

I don’t have to have a counterweight; a counterweight just makes lifting an empty tub a bit easier, but then I always need a source of energy, and if not the potential energy of a loaded tub descending a slope, then I am forced into a source such as a small electric winding-motor, which seems to me to be more complex than buying/building a second tub.

So my state of mind is at two parallel tracks, no points, two ore-tubs, one up, one down. Although of course I may need a rake of two or more tubs just to obtain a threshold to overcome frictional forces

Bufferstop » If the incline is on made up ground the counterweight can be in a vertical shaft, I've seen drawings of the principal but never a photo of one. I have seen at RM York a very short one in which the counterweight slides up and down between the wheels of the single car, but if the system is of any length and the space is available it makes sense to use counterbalanced cars, less hanging around waiting for the next one ascending.

A vertical shaft, too, has winched its way through my mind. My first thought was Pythagorean – I would want the free travel of the vertical counterweight to be greater than the free travel of the inclined rail tracks, which takes me into “sine sixty” or maybe “tan sixty” calculations. Not difficult.

But then the vertical approach suggests a baseboard not quite as mobile as the twin-tub, twin-tracks model.
Counterweights between wheels suggest another mathematical function P(derailment) whether “P” is of course a probability function.

Bufferstop » If the service isn't frequent enough your potential descending passengers might just be tempted to walk. I've often thought about the possibility in my back garden average slope 1in12 steepest section 1in 8, make it a water balanced system and call it a water feature.

“1 in 12” I travelled ten times a week 1953-56 on the trips to/from school, Manchester Road Burnley from Goodshaw!
Water in Bonavista is free in the sense that you pay the council $360 and get as much water as you want, and what’s more you can drink it as long as you boil it. I have switched to harvesting rain-water from my roof. Nonetheless, the rain water from my roof is over-abundant.
It is the combination of water and electricity that gives me pause for thought.

Also sloped wagons.
I know that funicular cars mostly have angled chassis to keep the passengers sitting normally, (but not always)

Is Big Chute Marine Railway a funicular? I have enjoyed watching this in action many a summer.

A water-powered system has the advantage that I could use water-towers rather than coal-chutes, but the slope again raises problems.
For the ore-tubs I thought that I could install vertical panels to inhibit ore cascading over the front lip of a tub and re-ballasting the track rather than building sloping chassis. Sloping chassis might be awkward if I decided to change the slope of the incline.

Postby pete12345 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:02 am
pete12345 » Another idea that comes to mind would be a freight-carrying funicular along the lines of the Welsh slate railways. Perhaps one wagon remains permanently coupled to each end of the cable to make operation simpler (due to some railway regulation involving a brake van) and alternate trains of loaded and empty wagons are coupled to the brake vans to ascend and descend the hill.

I confess that when I wrote “funicular” I had thought of ore-tubs, rather than plastic passengers. Is it still a funicular if it trundles ore up (or down) an inclined slope? In my case I had thought of the tubs being anchored to the hauling cable, and the tubs being independent of the mainline

My dream/vision has been of a sloped railway operating independently of the main-line stuff travelling above/below, much like Daniel’s lead to the Suchard factory.

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:35 am
Mountain » Welded track? What scale will the model be? I use Peco code 100 rails soldered onto sleepers I cut from printed circuit board but I model in 7mm scale.

Now don’t get technical on me! When I said “welded” I was trying not to fall back on “plastic cement”, or those microscopic track-pins that I was fond of at age fourteen. My neighbour is good at welding; he works in a panel-beater shop in Sat John’s, but much as I love him he is not setting foot near my toys with a torch of any kind.
At any rate, I am trying to shed complexity of assembly for delightful complexity of appearance. Hence the “perpetual motion” aspect.

Postby Daniel » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:59 am
Daniel » I know a modeler used for his 1/32 and Gn15 modeling code 100 rail directly spiked on a flat plywood baseboard, Very useful, time and work sparing if you want embedded track.

Please see “Now don’t get technical on me!” above. (grin)

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:42 am
Mountain » I tried that on my 7mm narrow gauge layout before I used soldered track. Trying to get the rail height all level on such a small oval with rails that spring in all directions if not "Tamed" was what I found to be an impossibility on my small layout design, which back then was an oval on just a single 2ft x 3 1/2ft board.

This too was on my mind. I will be having enough problems with tubs-on-a-slope without introducing wobbly-rails.

Next post: Thoughts on an N-scale freight funicular.
Cheers
Chris

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:22 pm

Just for Mountain and those with unruly rails
Ta-da---
"Rails that spring in all directions - you need my "Universal Rail Tamer"" Here's a shot of me "straightening" an unhelpful rail. The effect isn't instant but it is even reversible. That angle does me no favours I'll hold the phone higher next time!
The Universal Rail Bender
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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:37 pm

ChrisGreaves wrote:It strikes me that a funicular with a sixty-degree slope would make an ideal functioning diorama for someone like me - restarting in the hobby....
Clarification: i am Immensely grateful for all comments on anything I have posted. As some of you will have realized, Model Railway work has been lifted above its nadir to its apogee in only two months here in Bonavista.
Furthermore: I am an ideas man, and while I might actually be inclined to build a freight-inclined railway, it may prove to be beyond my eyesight/manipulative abilities.
Not to mention the impossibility of buying N-scale material locally.
That said, it is fun for me to dream and invent, so I hope that the dialogue sparked in this thread may at some time in the future be a source of inspiration.

Now:- My state of mind is this.
Bonavista_20210418_080924.JPG
Perhaps two N-scale wagons, initially loaded with lead to provide a surplus of potential energy.
Two coal-chutes, a yard of N-scale track, and a length of chalk-line for cable.
(1) The lighter (empty) wagon is titled “m” in this discussion, the loaded (heavier) wagon “M”.
(2) M descends and pulls m to the top of the incline.
(3) On reaching the top, m dissipates its remaining kinetic energy by impacting a lever which absorbs the energy into a lever which chutes a load into the wagon (the m-wagon is about to change identity from m to M)
(4) A second or less after this event M dissipates its remaining potential energy by impacting a lever which causes M to vent its contents into a chute below. (the M-wagon is about to change identity from M to m)
(5) The wagons now change identity; what was m is now a fully-loaded M at the top of the incline.
(6) M must be on enough of an incline to allow it to begin rolling towards m. Momentum picks up and M hauls m to the top of the incline.
(7) The process self-terminates when the input chute can no longer deposit a load into the wagon at the top of the incline.
(8) This mechanism suggests a series of funiculars bringing loads down the mountain in a series of steps

The sketch and notes I developed last night while getting up steam for a last mug of tea.
At 10:00 a.m. this morning I have contemplated making my own N-track by cannibalizing one of my 5 lengths of Peco Flex-track, slicing the shoes(?) from one side, and using a home-made track guage to super-glue the rail closer to the first rail, three inches per night, so that I can have a less-than-OO funicular. You can blame end2end for sparking my interest in N-gauge. Super-glue and N-gauge were not available in Southern Cross sixty years ago.
Nor for that matter, was end2end.

The rain has paused, so it is time to go clear that area behind the shed of junk and get ready to plant the artichoke bulbs which arrivecd yesterday from British Columbia.
THANKS TO ALL
Chris
Last edited by ChrisGreaves on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:40 pm

Bufferstop wrote:Just for Mountain and those with unruly rails
Thank you! If I am not mistaken that is a hacksaw like the one I lost in Toronto. A 1/4-inch diameter rod bent into shape. The ends had to be squeezed towards each other to introduce a spare blade. I miss that hacksaw! Today they have over-mechanized devices with blades that bend and snap.
Cheers
Chris

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:23 pm

And a tensioning screw with a knurled nut which makes your fingers sore (saw-I'll get my coat)
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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:36 pm

Bufferstop wrote:Just for Mountain and those with unruly rails
Ta-da---
"Rails that spring in all directions - you need my "Universal Rail Tamer"" Here's a shot of me "straightening" an unhelpful rail. The effect isn't instant but it is even reversible. That angle does me no favours I'll hold the phone higher next time!
The Universal Rail Bender


It was not the curve itself, but it was the height, as the pinning was not, and could not be even. I was "Chasing" the high bits around the layout several times. It was due to the limitations of using track pins as spikes on softwood sleepers on sharp curves. The actual springing was happening vertically which was the main problem.
When I soldered the rails onto PCB instead, it solved all problems in one go, as it gave me a perfectly flat and hard surface to lay the rails onto and the soldering made the rails adjustable so it is easier to fix issues then with RTR trackwork, because if I do get miss-shaped rails in any direction, as long as their base sits flat on each sleeper, they do tend to behave themselves and are forced to "Comply", as don't forget that rails fixed firmly on every sleeper have no choice but to comply with where they are put.
The only potential issue is one that I have thankfully not needed to address, and this is due to rail expansion and contraction.
Having layed every rail in the same way where none of my sleepers allow for such movements, I was a little concerned, but in practice, tif the sleepers do move, it is by such a small mount that it has not been an issue, but I have not ballasted yet. Maybe a flexible glue in the ballast will insure that this remains as a hard glue may make things too firm? I do not know, but my layout is not really large enough to be concerned about expansion as it is no kore then 7ft long and that is on two seperate boards using "Bridge tracked pieces to join the track inbetween the two boards.

.

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby Mountain » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:39 pm

Chris. Wobbly rails are not an issue if soldering onto PCB. Gauge width is but rails can be adjusted by re-heating them until the solder liquifies and moving them slightly to where they need to be.

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Mon May 03, 2021 10:42 am

ChrisGreaves wrote: ... It strikes me that a funicular with a sixty-degree slope would make an ideal functioning diorama for someone like me - restarting in the hobby ...
But then the BBC, in direct competition with the Grauniad, came up with The world's steepest funicular railway "The floors tilt, adjusting to the slope as the funicular climbs at a gradient of 110% at its steepest point.".

Now I don't recall Mr. Puzey spending much time on anti-gravity mechanisms back in 1962-63 when he was holding forth. I am confident that he spent less time on anti-gravity than the time it took him to snort at perpetual-motion devices.
That said, if I could get this to work on a 110% slope, and tap the excess energy, I may have found a means to power my soil sieve up by the back fence.
:roll:
Cheers
Chris
Last edited by ChrisGreaves on Mon May 03, 2021 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Mon May 03, 2021 11:57 am

Bufferstop wrote:Just for Mountain and those with unruly rails ...

Hi Bufferstop; I've been mulling over how I might bend rails in the vertical sense.
Funic001a.jpg
Funic001a.jpg (6.83 KiB) Viewed 40 times
A side-view of a funicular. At "A" I thought of having a very-slightly-inclined, but near-horizontal rail bed. My idea was that the wagons would look more natural charging/discharging on a horizontal bed.
In the diagram near "A" you will see a label "c", with a thin line. This is my not-to-scale gradient on the rail bed, enough incline to get the laden wagon rolling towards the steep part of the track.
I quailed at the thought of using Flextrack to flex in a dimension it was not designed to flex in, but now I know that you, with your experience as a rail-bender, know a thing or two, and that you are in a position to post a valid comment on this idea:-

Time is our ally.
Suppose I built a wooden frame with a curved main body (curved to my target curvature where the top of the incline must transition to the horizontal platform), and attached to that curved base, a piece of flexible wooden strapping (one-eighth inch plywood?), with the 36-inch Flextrack sandwiched at one end of the frame.
That is, one end of my track is sandwiched between the curved wooden drum and the flexible wooden strap.
Each evening I give a screw a quarter turn before going to bed, and so each day, a little bit more of the track is bent in the vertical sense to make a transitional curve from (say ) 60º to 0º.
So, it might be a two-month job, but Time is our ally.

Based on your experience, is Flextrack likely to succumb to this relentless but gentle pressure, or am I most likely to wake up one morning to find a piece of track suitable only for dioramas based on this page?

I know that this technique is used in real life, rolling-mils and the like, to bend real-life-steel rails, but am curious about Flextrack's ability to submit when the curving is applied in the vertical sense, and in my case, the transition is much more severe than it would be in a real-life railbed transitioning from an incline to a horizontal.

Too, I shall indeed essay with a spare length of track, but any points from an expert can only help me (grin)

Thanks
Chris

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Re: How is my brain nowadays??? (Funicular layout)

Postby ChrisGreaves » Tue May 04, 2021 1:43 pm

I have this morning ordered
TWO "R6154A Hornby Procor hopper wagons "Readymix Concrete" (weathered) (Unboxed)"
and TWO Packets "36-024 BACHMANN LMS Bogies (2 per pack)"

Current status:
  1. The hinged (variable incline) baseboard is set up
  2. I have set aside two 36" lengths of Peco track.
  3. I have ordered four coach bogies for two gondola wagons in Phase1
  4. I have ordered two four-wheel wagons for Phase 2
    (Phase 0 is "hook up the wagons for a quick trial run, just in case they work RTR)
  5. I had sardines for supper last night and washed out the tin and the lid, so now I can begin modelling a sliding tin-plate shutter in a tin-plate sleeve and see how much force I need to open and to close a hopper loaded with dry rice. That's assuming, of course, that I can negotiate the tin-snips (purchased yesterday) out of the blister-pack without borrowing my neighbour's tin-snips to cut the plastic blister!

British Model Trains sent me to The Blue Mountains where I learned of a prototype funicular with a 52º incline; possibly the steepest operating funicular in the world.
I shall use this value as a benchmark on my system. Whether I reach or exceed it is moot at this time, but when I do reach it, I will treat all members of the NRMF to a ride on Scenic Railway Blue Mountains!

Cheers
Chris


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