Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Any questions about designing a model railway layout or problems with track work.
Mark82
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Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:34 am

prob another colliery layout, this is to tide me over till the loft is borded out and ready for the big layout...your thoughts and ideas on where to add power supply please...... any comments for improvement welcome....

Image

Image

cheers Mark

MattWallace
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby MattWallace » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:43 pm

Hi Mark,

Are you running DCC or DC?

If DC, are you using insul-frog points or electro-frog ones?

Do you plan to have any "blocks" (i.e. sections where trains will be waiting) and will there be any locos running on the "display" line or is that just for static traffic?

Let us know and we can probably help further... :)

Matt

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:58 pm

Will be run on DC mat, the display line will only be for a static only. Only place I had thought about trains waiting is the top siding this area maybe some sort of engine shed. As for track its all bog standard hornby. All points will be controlled manually. And only one train running at a time.

Mark

MattWallace
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby MattWallace » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:04 pm

ok, in that case it's easy.

If you're not ever going to be running more than one train at a time, just solder the power feed to every section of track (checking the polarity as you go) - that way you'll be set up for DCC if you choose to convert at a later stage and you can pretty much guarantee the power supply to the loco at any given point of the layout ensuring smooth runnings :)

If you were running more than one loco, it would make it a bit trickier and you'd have to take block detection etc. into account, but since you aren't, you don't!

Hope that helps,

Matt

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:08 pm

Thankful matt appreciate that, but my knowlage of electronics is 0 :oops:
How would I do that, as I'll only be using the basic hornby one R965 or the R8250

Mark

Edit, I don't mean the soldering bit I mean the electrical set up.....

MattWallace
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby MattWallace » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:13 am

Hi Mark,

So instead of using one of the power clips or the power tracks, I solder one wire to each rail on each piece of track.

The complete procedure that I use is as follows:

1) Drill a small hole between the sleepers on the outside of the rails at a single point either side of the track.
2) Mark on the track where the holes are using a felt tip
3) lift the track
4) using the felt-tip marks, solder a wire to each rail at the correct point
5) drop the wires through the hole
6) repeat for each piece of track on the layout - with points, wire them at the toe and at each fork making sure you get the polarity correct.
7) Connect all the wires under the baseboard using terminal blocks.
8) Connect the terminal blocks to the output from your controller.

Basically, you end up with something that looks a little bit like this:

Straight/Curved track:
Image

Points:
Image
Image

NOTE: there is a second wire soldered to the "dark-side" of the point in the picture above.

I hope that helps,

Matt

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:58 am

Yes Matt that's fantastic thank you. Why is it better this way ? Is it because the whole of the layout is "live"??

MattWallace
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby MattWallace » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:54 am

In your case, it ensures a number of things:

1) You don't have unsightly powerclips/tracks on the layout, making it look more like a real railway
2) You don't have to worry about switching a set of points and losing power to that segment of track

If you were running multiple locos then it would become an issue as you won't be able to isolate the power from one section to stop a loco from running, however I've found that switching to DCC solved this - the power is always on but the trains "listen" for instructions on how to move so you can have three locos on the layout, power following throughout, and only the one that you tell to move will move.

If you want to stick with DC but may want to run multiple locos in future, then more thought will need to go into where the power is placed. Let me know if this might be the case and I'll try and think about it over the next few days.

Matt

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:35 pm

Double post.
Last edited by Mark82 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:35 pm

Cheers Matt your a great help. I may go for the DCC opting on my loft layout but my electronic skills and extra expense are putting me off a kitted at the moment

MattWallace
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby MattWallace » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Heh, it took me a while to summon up the courage to go DCC, but a bargin on a decoder for my GBRf 66 (which was "DCC Ready") encouraged me to take the plunge.

I'm now running my loco from my computer using JMRI (see the thread in my signature!) and four months ago I knew nothing about DCC - it's quite simple to get the hang of and the electronics behind it are as complicated as you wish to make them :)

It basically gives you all of the advantages I've outlined above with soldering connectors to the entire track whilst still allowing you to run multiple locos.

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NEvans
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby NEvans » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:31 pm

MattWallace wrote:If you're not ever going to be running more than one train at a time, just solder the power feed to every section of track, you can pretty much guarantee the power supply to the loco at any given point of the layout ensuring smooth runnings :) Matt


For a layout this size isn't soldering a power feed to every of track a bit over the top? I appreciate a large club\show track made up of flexi track you would do to ensure smooth running, but I wouldn't have thought at this size at home it would be needed.

I would have thought between the two bottom sets of points going up the middle of the board. If easier put a very small straigth between the two bottom points which may be easier to solder to. And a third point on the top right straight. This way all lines can be isolated when the set track points are set the other way. At a later stage if going DCC can always solder a few more points if not that smooth.
First foray into N Gauge: SimpleTown 4'x2'

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:17 pm

NEvans wrote:
MattWallace wrote:If you're not ever going to be running more than one train at a time, just solder the power feed to every section of track, you can pretty much guarantee the power supply to the loco at any given point of the layout ensuring smooth runnings :) Matt


For a layout this size isn't soldering a power feed to every of track a bit over the top? I appreciate a large club\show track made up of flexi track you would do to ensure smooth running, but I wouldn't have thought at this size at home it would be needed.

I would have thought between the two bottom sets of points going up the middle of the board. If easier put a very small straigth between the two bottom points which may be easier to solder to. And a third point on the top right straight. This way all lines can be isolated when the set track points are set the other way. At a later stage if going DCC can always solder a few more points if not that smooth.


Any chance of marking on the top pic where ya mean please...? :oops:

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pete12345
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby pete12345 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:45 pm

NEvans wrote:
For a layout this size isn't soldering a power feed to every of track a bit over the top? I appreciate a large club\show track made up of flexi track you would do to ensure smooth running, but I wouldn't have thought at this size at home it would be needed.


It's not so much the length of rail, it's the number of rail joints. This is where conductivity tends to break down. Also this layout, while small in size, is quite technically complex, so if you're going the DCC approach of making all tracks live, you need a fair few power feeds anyway. Even if some of these aren't strictly necessary with DC, it doesn't hurt to add them and will be advantageous if the OP makes the switch to DCC later on.

I highly recommend DCC for yard layouts as it makes a range of loco movements possible that would be rather complex to wire for correctly on DC.Two operators each driving their own loco, can work together to shunt the yard without worrying about whether power is supplied to the required section of track. Once you have two locos on the layout, the wiring for DCC ranges from the same complexity to vastly simpler than the equivalent DC layout.

Regarding soldering, if you plan your power feeds in advance I see no reason to solder to the side of the rail. A connection can be made by cutting away the plastic web between two sleepers and soldering to the underside of the rail. Once laid and ballasted, the wire will be completely invisible.
Once an engine attached to a train, was afraid of a few drops of rain...

Mark82
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Re: Shunt / fiddlers yard 6x3

Postby Mark82 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:42 pm

My intention will be never to have more than one train in the yard, my intention is to physically pull the points via manual set up "to me" making it more of an enjoyable knowing I physically put that rake of wagons and that train where I wanted it.... DCC will not be an option on this lay out due to funds and the trains i have for it are only set up to run DC.... Could I make any changes to the lay out do you think???

Mark


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