Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

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Bigmet
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bigmet » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:43 pm

luckymucklebackit wrote:...Warhammer/Games Workshop ... It appears that it is all about vertical control of their concept, they have the market sewn up and rigorously defend their intellectual property from manufacture through to retail. I doubt if the model railway industry will ever waken up to this concept.

The last to really try anything like this in UK model railway retail was Hornby-Dublo. Product went to appointed retailers only with effective 'territory' by restriction to one per town. (Presumably one per district or the like in cities.) Get your H-D fix, exclusively from your local H-D dealer. And they got eaten alive because the Triang/Trix/Playcraft/Farish fix was cheaper and more readily available.

Since there is no intellectual property in model railway worth very much, this vertical concept simply will not work. Consider that Hornby hold a licence for the intellectual property that is TTTE, so they have in theory no competitor in their appointed territory. Given their troubles I think we can say that this isn't delivering sufficiently for them, no matter how well defended by the TTTE property owner...

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Bufferstop
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Hornby's UK franchise for TTTE doesn't seem to have been very profitable for them despite using existing models as the basis for much of the range. Could this be because it was over engineered for it's market. Bachmann's US product is engineered down to the toy market but manages to include features like moving eye's. Percy is an object lesson in extracting maximum value from cheap materials and clever assembly particularly the bit of die-casting that puts metal only where a chassis needs it in one assembly step. For anyone learning production engineering it would make an excellent case study.
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Mike Parkes
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Mike Parkes » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:38 pm

DCC wise both are a bit fussy with the decoder that is required needing a small 6 pin decoder, Bachmanns 6 pin decoser for example is too big. The Barclay being tighter on space that the P and requires dislodgment of various pipes to get the body off without damage.

Bigmet
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bigmet » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:19 am

So that's one aspect Hattons can improve then, design for a better decoder space.

Something that often strikes me in smaller models is the inflexible thinking when it comes to motor position within the model. There's sufficient volume inside the body to to accept the volumes of the motor, gear train, and both decoder socket and decoder. But then the motor and gear train is put smack on the centreline, which means that the remaining space is now divided into two very narrow shapes. But if the motor and gear train can be positioned even quite slightly off-centreline, a larger space is left for the decoder. (Many models have the axle gear off-centreline, so RTR manufacturers have had a little practice at such assymetry.)

Mike Parkes
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Mike Parkes » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:43 pm

Do not think there is anything wrong with the design, its simply a lack of space due to the size of the models. Hattons own 6 pin decoder will fit the P but that is too big for the Barclay and Hattons are recommending a Gaugemaster DCC23 so its simply a case of any DCC user buying one to beware that if they have 6 pin decoder spare it may not fit and they need to order an appropriate one or pay Hattons to supply the model ready fitted (an extra £11-£12 compared to the loco + decoder unfitted). On the P the motor/gear can only be centrally located as to it protrudes beyond the tanks within the boiler space and I suspect the same applies to Barclay.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:56 pm

It seems almost as though they design the chassis starting with the assumption of a single worm and gear, which puts the motor into the most space consuming position then move it just enough to squeeze in an extra stage of reduction. A motor mounted horizontally (or vertically for small ones usually wastes less space and the gearing is no more complicated, just different.
When it comes to fitting in sound decoders, one has to wonder if it's worth the effort with such small models, as getting in a worthwhile speaker is all but impossible and a minimal speaker just ruins the effect.
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Bigmet
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bigmet » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:21 pm

With a small loco of this sort typically operating in a fairly modest space, I would suggest having the sound decoder off the loco, and driving an amplifier and conventional speaker mounted on or under the layout would be a worthwhile experiment.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:06 pm

It would make sense, as this sort of loco mainly shuffles back and forth in a relatively small area. You'd have to get recordings of a small shunter though, anything else would sound a bit daft.
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Bigmet
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bigmet » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:25 am

Surely there must be sound projects to suit such small steam available?

A 'land based' sound decoder permanently connected to the DCC supply might well perform better than the same decoder in a loco, subject to the noisy track interface for current supply and signal, and also having to supply motor current.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:34 am

The trouble with land based systems is lack of synchronisation, particularly is you may wish to use different locos from time to time. I wonder if the BBC ever sells off old "jingle machines" just load it up with spot sound effects.
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alex3410
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby alex3410 » Mon May 21, 2018 2:23 pm

My SECR P class has arrived today and its an absolute stunner! really impressed by how it looks, just need to get some track down so i can test run it now :lol:

Very tempted to get the other SECR one as well now or the bluebell version - will have to buy a scratch card on the way home u guess :roll:

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alex3410
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Re: Hattons P and Barclay, two small locos

Postby alex3410 » Mon May 21, 2018 8:49 pm

ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Alex, on Flickr


lovely little loco, i had hattons fit the decoder for me and after a bit of faffing around with the controllers conifg (disabling DC running did the trick) i got it running on my rolling road, it didnt run very smoothly but i think its down to the size of the loco on the rolling road

i am hoping that when i get the track down in a loop in a few weeks that it will run better on the track


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