In Praise of Lima.

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Bufferstop
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:09 pm

Very prototypical for a bubble car. Lima released their version when I travelled on one every morning. There was one detail they got completely wrong, at least in comparison to the one I travelled on. The line of door hinges visible along the side was not straight and level, it dipped by a good 4" at the centre of the body, as did the floor and roof. The bottoms of the doors were all different according to where they were on the body, some sloped down away from the hinges and others sloped up and some had extra bits nailed on and shaped to fit the un-square openings.
Grafting on a cab in place of the flat end with the corridor connector required some suck it and see surgery to get clearance between the motor bogie and the internal detail of the cab, but no one has ever noticed. One day have a look at Lima's version and see how they did it. If I was doing it today I'd throw out the innards of the Lima bogie and graft it onto a SPUD.
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Mountain
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Mountain » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:34 pm

Are you saying the bubble cars were origionally single ended in real life? Rather like the later class 153's which used to be class 155's. Those smaller cabs were small!
What are the spuds like in pulling power as I heard they were not that good? Never had one myself.
I had a small prairie but never had the pannier. My prairie looked good but was not used much. It was too light weight to pull a lot. I did buy it secondhand.
The large prairie from Airfix/Mainline design was a lovely model. It went well and looked good.
The Mainline pannier was a favourite. Silky smooth running with looks to match. It did require wheel to frame contacts to be cleaned, but other then that it went exceptionally well. It often ran with a pair of Airfix suburban B coaches that I'd bought at the same time.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

Bigmet
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bigmet » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:56 am

Firefly16 wrote:...On the steam side, the top half of the 94XX captured the solid, chunky look of the later GWR/WR panniers almost to perfection, but those just-too-small wheels... Still on Lima's steam offerings, first prize has to go the small prairie. Yes, the slide bar/con rod and motion supporting bracket detailing leave something to be desired and the wheels are somewhat less than scale size but anyone who saw the small prairie repainted and bearing the shirt button logo on offer on e-Bay a week or so ago will surely grant that overall, the model still does justice to its prototype.

Uurrgh no, when it comes to Lima's Stimas! All the finesse on show in their diesel body mouldings seemingly departed when it came to steam models.

The 94xx and 45xx both have significant vertical dimensional distortions as a comparison to protoype photos will show.
The J50 was the best of those I saw, but not much of a best.
Generally apart from the shape errors: little detail, no glazing; short of Hornby's then standards, miles behind what Mainline, Airfix, Replica had produced. Put an Airfix N2, Mainline J72 or Replica B1 body alongside a Lima Stima. Crisp and 'right', glazed, some nice applied detail, vs sloppy, very.
And their tank loco's mechanisms were dire mechanically, possibly the worst ever in OO, and that took some doing when the competition includes the likes of fragile Mainline split chassis.

Never saw a Lima King, but its rapid withdrawal in the face of competition from a lack-lustre Hornby model probably says it all...

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Bufferstop
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:45 am

@Mountain, - no just that I didn't wait for Lima to produce theirs. The bubble cars were built as single units based on their builders MU designs. I never took note of the unit number which plodded back and forth along our line, the amount of "sag" in the body was obvious to everyone, the fact that doors had been shaved and trimmed to fit the body shape suggested that there was no plan to rectify the fault. I suspect the presence of asbestos sheeted and taped over in the guards compartment ruled out any large scale readjustment of the bodywork. Those who started their journeys from Leamington or Warwick were relieved every time it made it up the bank to Hatton.
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:28 pm

I wonder about the quality of the information supplied to the Lima designers for the UK models. Vertical scaling errors is an ever present risk of scaling from photographs taken from an elevated position. Then there's the ventilators on the roof of the horsebox. Side and end elevations but no plan or photo from above. Level of detail apart their plastic mouldings were of a higher quality than Triang Hornby were producing. The detail they did put in may have been wrong but it was well executed, a bit sad when you think what could have been.
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Firefly16 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:36 pm

Yes, there was a nice clean, finished look about Lima mouldings. That said, I have never liked the attenuated sandbox and piping detailing and express passenger lamps on the prairie's bunker, but both are easily put right with a little thought and Milliput TM and wire in the case of one and a sharp craft knife and after-buffing in the other. Re my comment about the bubble car, I meant that the body sat on its underframe at an angle, one end being rather higher than the other.

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Bufferstop
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:15 pm

I haven't handled enough of the models to notice. The ones I examined were the first ones received by a local trader, who had only just finished unpacking them when I saw them. If they use the standard underframe from the DMU power car there will be a problem of fit in the cab area. I had to perform some surgery which they wouldn't be keen to do on a production line. That's one of the reasons I said if I was doing it now I'd use a SPUD or Black Beetle in the bogie frames, far less intrusion into the body.
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Mountain
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Mountain » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:57 pm

Lima pancake motors fitted to their DMU's were in the brake compartment so were rather less visible. I have Lima classes 117, 121 and 101.
The Lima kings had a better body profile then the Hornby kings, but the Hornby kings had the more accurate colours. Both models at this date were tender driven and both would pull 8-10 coaches or more. The Lima driving wheels on the loco were more prone to sticking then the Hornby kings but both had their days. Why I never really liked tender drive. May pull well but just didnt look the part for a loco pulling off with tender wheels spinning and loco wheels stuck! The Lima king, while the shape was good, the colour and especially the colour of the transfers were out. The green seemed too yellowy and the transfers and name and number plates were yellow instead of gold. I will say though that in its day, the Lima king wasn't bad, but to have a Triang hall class pull away even though the flanges were the deepest I had and the colour was too shiney green, it still looked the part when pulling away as my Albert Hall was loco driven so any wheel slip looked prototypical.

I found Lima diesels could pull a good ten coaches or more on the level and even the smaller 8 wheel diesels like the class 33 could pull 7 or 8. As long as their traction tyres were good they would pull OK. Hornby diesels tended to pull slightly less. For example, my Lima HST's can just about pull a HST with the correct number of coaches (Seven with the two power cars, one being the dummy)) but I do use the shorter Hornby coaches to save space. The Hornby HST's I have generally dont. They have too much wheel slip. I've not tried adding weight though, so this may well help.
I used to have a Lima GWR railcar which could pull ten coaches unlike the prototype! If I tried the bubble car it could probably pull a good rake of coaches. Never tried.

One thing that surprised me was that the newer Bachmann bogie wagons which are around 100 ton each in real life approx, are so heavy as models that no way do the modern central motored locos pull anything like a prototype length of 25-30 wagons.
I bought 14 and the Bachmann class 57 really struggles. No way would aa single bogie drive loco pull 14.

One thing I used to find was that in general Lima locos could pull what they needed to pull as wagon weights were acceptable. Light enough to allow scale lengths yet enough weight to prevent them to be pulled off the track. I was puzzled that my Bachmann locos that are very good pullers with their all wheel drive (Or nearly all wheel drive) and their heavy weight, but to struggle pulling less then half the wagons the real things regularly pull means the wagons are way too heavy. If they ditched the cast metal underframes and used plastic with a small metal weight it would be OK.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

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Ken Shabby
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Ken Shabby » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:06 pm

I own over 25 Lima locos and plan to buy more.
I'm well aware of their short comings, however they are easy to maintain and can be made to run well and can be detailed and upgraded If you wish.
I recently got fed up with overly delicate locos that come with bags of parts to fit and are tricky to repair and in some cases suffer from crumbling chassis's. Because of this I now mainly buy older locos.
I've become interested in the BR 1985 to privatisation era and so Lima's huge range of liverys is right up my street.
One thing I have come across a few times recently is Lima locos and coaches where the bogies have turned light grey and the plastic has become
brittle. I've seen a couple of early Deltic and a Western with this problem has anyone else seen this ?
Ken

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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby GWR_fan » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:20 pm

The Lima Siphon and early Mk1 coaches are susceptible to this on the bogies.

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Bufferstop
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:40 pm

I think it's daylight which turns the plastic brittle. Many ex shop window models exhibit the symptoms, and isn't that the reason why Hornby puts a window in their boxes, then blanks it out with a card bearing a drawing of the contents?
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Bigmet
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bigmet » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 am

The UV component of sunlight is the major active agent in deteriorating polymers commonly used for model railway productions. Also most likely to fade paints and dyes. Straightforward heating - greenhouse style - is also a bad plan! Keep curtains or blinds drawn if possible when the room is not in use, if any windows are significantly south facing. A UV barrier film is another approach, but these often don't look too attractive.

Mountain wrote:...One thing that surprised me was that the newer Bachmann bogie wagons which are around 100 ton each in real life approx, are so heavy as models that no way do the modern central motored locos pull anything like a prototype length of 25-30 wagons...

They will you know, but not without some work. Takes hours of running to get all the bearings and tyres polished up to the standard they need to be for traction from the loco and free rolling performance from the vehicles, with attention to use of a suitable lubricant.

I 'go to town' on this aspect, and once the vehicles are free rolling to the standard I require - at minimum rolls away on a true 1 in 100, and ideally significantly better than that - full length trains may be hauled on level and easily curved track. I adhere to the 'old standard' of 36" minimum radius curves and the difference this makes is very large. Both these standards were gained from 1960s onward experience in MRC's, building EM ,and then later P4 models. Works just as well in OO now we get decently accurate models in RTR, with competent mechanisms and running gear.

The lube I have been using on Bachmann coaches and wagons is GT85, a plastics compatible PTFE bike lube. I am told there is now a yet better product available for model helicoptors and drones, but this one does it for me: and 14 years of use and no plastics or paint damage in evidence is an incentive to stay put.

My single Bachmann class 47 manages a drawbar lift force of 76g. Wth the roughly 200g Bachmann mk 1 coach typically requiring near 2g force to 'break out' from rest and up to 1.5gf to keep rolling the 47 will just about realistically start 40 on level track and keep them moving, slowly grafting up to speed. Has to be level track though, any gradient quickly defeats it. And it's not just uphill you have to worry about. My layout has a standard 1 in 80 grade and a moving maximum load is unstoppable once going down at any speed. I lost control of a freight through not thinking about this when trying out the Hornby J15 for maximum load, and it finished up in a heap of wagons at my 'Ferme Park' : all rather too realistic.

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Mountain
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Mountain » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:44 pm

I have years of use with GT85 due to the bicycle trade. It is petroleum based. Dont use it on motors or electrical items as it will coat them with Teflon. Most plastics are OK with GT85, especially hard stiff plastics. I have had (Though rare) a softer plastic partially melt when it was left immersed in the stuff for a few months. It was my spoke key which was made with plastic that flexed rather then snapped under load.
If you own a carbon fibre bicycle, in no way use GT85 on it as GT85 will start to separate the fibres and weaken the part(s) or the frame.
In general it is safe to use with plastic through using it for over 25 years.
The only other issue I have is it effects my hands if I dont wash it off within a couple of minutes after using it. Wearing gloves makes my hands worse as it only takes a bit of a mist of the vapour to float into the glove and there is no way I can wear it without issues, so working on bicycles has not been easy as I'm guessing the spray has also may have been the cause for breathing issue I had for a while but have since subsided after a couple of years since I last worked, so I recommend not using it in confined conditions. Where I used to work the scent of GT85 would linger for hours after use as we were always using it. We would use about three cans a week dependingnon how many repairs were needed.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

Bigmet
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Bigmet » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:51 pm

Biggest risk with all Teflon fines on the hands, is smoking a cigarette. This produces the symptoms of influenza (and goodness knows what long term damage). It was a regular method for 'pulling a sickie' in a manufacturing operation in which I once had managerial responsibility, and took a while to track down. We had to switch to an inferior lubricant to eliminate the problem!

What is this carbon fibre of which you speak? Lovely Reynolds 531 in my classic Dawes tourer; although the Mrs' machine is all titanium frame, and there it is essential not to use any cadmium plated tools. (This was built as a study project by her nephew, who now works on the engineering of very fast cars indeed. The bike accelerated my non-athletic wife's average progress by an impressive 8 Kph.)

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Mountain
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Re: In Praise of Lima.

Postby Mountain » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:03 pm

Prefer 531 myself. After having owned many and tested probably thousands of bikes over the years, I keep going back to 531. I too have a Dawes tourer I bought new in 1989. Probably the best year for the model of bike I have. Horizontal dropouts and designed for 700c wheels. A year earlier and you are on 27" wheels and a year behind that and no canti brazeons. A year younger and vertical dropouts. The only downside being I missed out on the curly lugs! :oo

Back to Lima...
One of my favourite memories is running Lima locos flat out with a rake of 10 or 11 Lima Mk1 maroon coaches that were owned by a member of CWWRS on their very large club layout. The noise and thrill of the locos roaring through the clubroom was amazing.
I had a maroon Lima western which matched the coaches and ran ever so well. After a few laps of the loco at top speed they settled in. Quite a few loud locos quietened down after stretching their legs on this club layout.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.


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