DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

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Bufferstop
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:46 pm

High frequency track cleaners are nothing of the sort, they simply blast through the muck allowing the DC to flow, they make iron core motors noisy and get them warm, they will destroy the innards of a coreless motor, as without the attached iron core to hold the windings steady they will try to oscillate at the frequency of the device, the inertia of the loco's mechanical parts will prevent the motor rotating at this frequency so all of the oscillation will take place in the armature, which may destroy the non-metallic supports for the windings. The effect is similar to, but far worse than, the effect of leaving a DC loco stationary on a DCC layout. Track and wheel cleaning is one of those tasks that allow you to feel all virtuous when you have done it. Far better than worrying about what it's doing to your loco, once you know how it works.
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Richard Lee
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Richard Lee » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:33 am

NakatsuHime wrote:An interesting point for me to note here is the warning that HF 'Track Cleaners' are not recommended with coreless motors, and may even cause damage.

As I am running conventional DC with the Gaugemaster HF2, this is of some concern to me.
...[snip]

I use the Gaugemaster HF1 on my layout. When I got the Kernow/DJ ex LSWR O2 (which also has a coreless motor) I put an on-off switch on the 16 AC input to the "track cleaner". When I use the O2 I switch it off. It works well enough for me.

Regarding the use of these "track cleaners", I am very pleased with the improvement in slow running of the models that can use it. Dave Jones would probably be horrified to hear that the O2 (which I run without the "electronic track cleaner) is *nearly* as good a runner as the Hornby Terrier used with the HF1.

So far I have not come across any wheel-pitting or other adverse effects of using the "electronic track cleaner" that some people refer to. I find that track cleaning doesn't need to be done so often. On the other hand, when the track does need cleaning (for instance, when the light that shows the track cleaner is working starts coming on more than very infrequently) I do clean the track.

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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 am

Why would I want another 14XX ........... sorely tempted though.
My Dapol & Hornby versions pull quite well, but do tend to nod
with the sprung rear axle.
Oh I wasn't going to buy anything loco wise this year, but it looks
so much better, let alone improved running.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=32187 and Another on viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28436&start=60&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Bigmet
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Bigmet » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:02 am

Richard Lee wrote:
NakatsuHime wrote:An interesting point for me to note here is the warning that HF 'Track Cleaners' are not recommended with coreless motors, and may even cause damage.

As I am running conventional DC with the Gaugemaster HF2, this is of some concern to me.
...[snip]

I use the Gaugemaster HF1 on my layout. When I got the Kernow/DJ ex LSWR O2 (which also has a coreless motor) I put an on-off switch on the 16 AC input to the "track cleaner". When I use the O2 I switch it off. It works well enough for me...

Your choice, but systems that depend on memory are apt to fail - and for the reasons so well decribed above by Bufferstop - in that moment when you realise that this time you didn't switch of the HF1 before operating the DJM loco, that's the motor gone phut. (They will often run a short while with damage, and you'll be wondering why it isn't quite as responsive as it was; and then the rotor will fail, while running with the HF1 definitely not operating, just to add confusion.)

What I would do is hang a small plug from some concealed point of the DJM loco, that 'makes' one of the 16V AC supply lines to the HF1. That way the DJM loco has to be off the layout for the plug to be in the supply line for the HF1; and conversely when on the layout, there can be no supply to the HF1. Crude interlock, but it will work.

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Bufferstop
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:18 am

Bigmet just pipped me to the post.
@ NakatsuHime. As the drive systems of modern locos become more sophisticated the list of places/situations where HF units cannot be used grows continually. It is reaching the point where it's easier to say where they can. If you are only running models with the old X03/4/5 series of motors or their contemporaries, Romfords spring to mind, or open frame motors where you can see it has an iron core, and you are running them on pure DC analogue control you will be ok. The motors may exhibit a little noise and run slightly warmer than without it. Sealed can motors may have an iron core but you can't tell, so not worth the risk. Even light weight open frame motors like the Hornby type 7 are more at risk. DCC rules them out completely so IMHO their days are well and truly numbered. Invest in a large bottle of IPA, some cleaning swabs, a sheet of 2000grade wet and dry and a Peco track cleaning block. There's one big drawback to a bypass switch, as Bigmet says you have to remember to use it whenever a coreless motor is on the tracks.
I specifically said pure DC as some DC controllers use Pulse Width Modulation, controlling the speed by sending full voltage pulses of varying duration, the lack of the (relatively) heavy iron core to provide a flywheel effect means that coreless motors might not be trying to oscillate but they will certainly be running very jerkilly
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Mike Parkes
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Mike Parkes » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:44 am

It might be better, if use of electronic track cleaner is considered necessary, to power it by on push switch such that it is only active when the push switch is depressed. Still not entirely safe with coreless motors as there will always be the loco you think is isolated when it is not or sheer forgetfulness kicks it. The trick of using such a device is to monitor when it works and check the track / loco at that point on the layout, that wa it should need to be used all of the time - if its on more than its off then stuff really needs cleaning; the track, all wheels (loco, coach and wagon), loco pickups and the motor - the two biggest spreaders of muck around a layout are plastic wheels (easily resolved) and traction tyres (not so easily resolved).

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alex3410
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby alex3410 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:01 pm

While I remember I had a bit of trouble with the boiler section of the 14xx last night while fitting the chip:

ImageUntitled by Alex3410, on Flickr


i don't know if you can see from the image but the whole boiler section is lose, it looked to me as if the screw was a few mm to short and as such didn't bite into the plastic enough to keep it secured. I am hoping its just a case of tightening the screw.

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D605Eagle
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby D605Eagle » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:26 pm

How far out from the loco do those couplings stick? Recent releases seem to be going backwards in this respect. The Hornby Peckett whilst absolutely brilliant suffers terribly with extremely long couplings. Cutting the NEM pockets back and gluing the coupling back in flush with the buffers makes a world of difference.

Bigmet
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Bigmet » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:19 pm

That's not the only thing going backwards, an owner with some measuring tackle has just discovered that the driving wheels are scaled at 5'6" instead of the correct 5'2". An interesting error, as usually all the pressure is to reduce wheel diameter in models to get them inside scale or nearly so splashers and other close fitting parts.

The 'sticking out' coupler problem is really a result of the standard components - mounting and coupler - being used 'willy-nilly'. One of the benefits of the NEM system is that most of the time the coupler position can at least be quickly improved by the 'pruning' method described; much simpler than having to provide a new mounting point for a screw on mount coupler.

I may be wrong on this, but believe it was Airfix GMR who were the most recent (1970s!) to actually introduce their own design of coupler mounting and coupler in OO. Not a bad attempt either; the mounting pocket shorter than the typical NEM pocket implementation, and it is this dimension that often makes NEM pocket mounted couplers stick out too far. As a result the bumper bar of their clip in compact coupler - similar in length to a modern NEM mounted miniature tension lock - came only just ahead of the buffer faces, very neat indeed. I was reminded of this by a recent purchase of a current Hornby N2 on cheap offer, and there's the old Airfix coupler mount unchanged after all these years in Hornby's hands. (There's an 8 pin DCC socket now though, so that's alright!)

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D605Eagle
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby D605Eagle » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:53 pm

There's an awful lot of wagons in Hornby's range that continue to use the old Airfix mountings. In fact Hornby has so many different couplings and mountings its bordering on chaos. Why they persist with horrible huge moulded in couplings, even on so called super detail stock is beyond me, and they are a right pain to replace too.

ray835
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby ray835 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:00 pm

my favourite loco is the 14xx the only thing id have done was to have put screw link couplings on it and ditched the others

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Bufferstop
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Re: DJ Models (Hattons) Class 14xx (image heavy)

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:45 pm

Re the Peckett - Just about the first thing I did was pulled out the Hornby couplers and replaced them with Bachmann short ones. The one in the front pocket I cut the shoulders back by 1mm and it now sits with the front face just ahead of the buffer faces, I thought I might have to doctor the ends of the tail piece to hold it firmly in the pocket, but even without it takes a good strong pull to get it out. At least we don't have it as bad as the N gauge enthusiasts the KD style thing that Dapol use is a real monstrosity.
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