Carriages derailing

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peterjg
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Carriages derailing

Postby peterjg » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:26 pm

Hello,I have just bought three S/H Hornby carriages from Ebay, cosmetically they are fine but will not run through my Peco setrack points there is a lot of lateral movement on the wheels and they hit the inner plastic guide rail end on and derail.
I am hoping the wheels are worn and a new set will cure the problem but as a beginner I am not sure what size replacements I need, are sizes quoted overall dia or running surface dia, my wheels seem to be an odd size being 15mm overall and 13mm on the running surface.
Any thoughts appreciated

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:40 pm

That sounds like the Back-to-Back setting is too narrow.
Being second-hand we have no idea of just how old they may be.
The current setting for a measurement between the inner faces on an pair of wheels
should be 14.5 mm.
You should be able to tease the wheels outwards by holding one still and with a twisting
motion ease the other outwards.
You can buy back-to-back gauges, normally referred to as B2B.

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Roger (RJ)
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Roger (RJ) » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:42 pm

Wheel size is measured over the running surfaces, the tyre, not the flanges.

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6C
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby 6C » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:32 pm

Yes - how old are they - as the older Hornby/Triang wheels were of a deeper-wider profile - which prevents smooth running through more modern points.

Can be addressed by changing the wheels for more modern ones..
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JickettyCan
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby JickettyCan » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:04 pm

peterjg wrote:Hello,I have just bought three S/H Hornby carriages from Ebay, cosmetically they are fine but will not run through my Peco setrack points there is a lot of lateral movement on the wheels and they hit the inner plastic guide rail end on and derail.
I am hoping the wheels are worn and a new set will cure the problem but as a beginner I am not sure what size replacements I need, are sizes quoted overall dia or running surface dia, my wheels seem to be an odd size being 15mm overall and 13mm on the running surface.
Any thoughts appreciated


If you remove the entire wheel axle with wheels attached, you can twist the wheels round in opposite directions and pull them off the axle (well one at least). This allows you to increase or decrease the gap between them. There is no screw thread so you can twist them either way - it's just a tight fitting.

If adjusting the gap doesn't help then it might be that the wheels are just too big - the flanges for instance. I bought my son 10 oil tankers recently and some of them were doing the same thing. I swapped the wheels out for those from an old intercity passenger carriage chassis and they worked fine (and oddly the original wheels now being in the intercity bogey also now clear the points lol showing that the distance between axles also plays a role).

Also keep an eye on the couplings, i've noticed these are the #1 menace for causing derailments - bent hooks, loops or a mix of different coupling hooks causes big problems but the biggest one is hooks that are different lengths - they then make it harder for the shorter hook to move about freely and as they can't escape each other one will eventually lock the other one forcing the rear axle to lift up off the track and sideways so that the hooks can remain in the loops. Oh yes and make sure the hooks can also move sideways loosely!!!

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby End2end » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:52 pm

Dad-1 wrote:You can buy back-to-back gauges, normally referred to as B2B.

This tool should be in every modellers tool kit.
Even brand new, out of the packet Hornby wheel replacement sets can be out of gauge I've found.
I've got the OO brass DCC concepts version.
https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-tag ... ack-gauge/
Thanks
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Bufferstop
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:54 pm

Let's establish just how old these coaches are, the very oldest would be from the days before Triang took over the Hornby range. Each wheelset is a pair of plastic wheels each with half of a hollow axle which slides about on a central metal pin. You definitely need to replace these with new Hornby replacement wheels. You will also need to fit brass bearing cups in the axle holes. The next newer standard are complete plastic axles and wheels all in one. They were introduced by Triang and passed through to the days of Triang/Hornby. There's can be swapped directly with new Hornby replacement wheels as can the next generation which are metal rimmed versions of the same wheels. These were fitted into models produced by Hornby at Margate and by early release made in China. The final version is the one Hornby now use Which has metal wheels with a plastic bush fitted onto a metal axle. These are the only ones where you can reset the back to back dimension. It should be 14.5mm. When replacing any Triang or Hornby coach wheels use the replacement wagon wheels, they are the nearest in diameter to the ones fitted. This is because of compromises made in the design which have never been corrected. Using 14mm coach wheels makes the ride height too high and leads to coupling problems. It's only the very latest coaches which come with 14mm wheels and these shouldn't need replacing.
If you feel capable of performing some surgery on the bogie pivots, and creating new one from plastic sheet and a nut and bolt by replacing the bogie complete with wheels and coupler you can get the coaches running on the right sized wheels and the ride height much closer to scale, but it's quite a bit of work and you may not consider it worth it.
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Mountain
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Mountain » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:04 am

Just a quick word.

Older carriages (Coaches) in 00 gauge use 12.5mm wheels. (Some of the earliest Triang coaches used even smaller wheels!).
Modern coaches use the 14mm wheels. Tell us what type your coaches are and we can advize which wheels to get and how to put them on etc.

For many years though, Hornby coaches apart from the latest models out in the last few years tend to run on 12.5mm wheels which are sometimes sold as 12.6mm. Very little difference between 12.5 and 12.6.

14mm wheels (14.1mm if I remember correctly) will increase the ride height and my give clearance issues. Sometimes one can use them ok, but I would stick to the right wheels for the right coaches.

You mentioned 13mm. This sill likely be the innermost profile becase Hornby wheels used to be very profiled to help them go round sharp curves at speed. The profile (Where the inner part of the tread will not be flat but will be narrower then the outer edges of the wheel) are designed like that so they will lean the vehicles inwards into the curves so they will be less likely to fly off the track at speed.

Most of the de-railment issues will be the back to back measurement. They used to allow more roomto go through point flangeaays, but these days with finer scale wheels, Peco decided to cater for this market. Their earlier points had more leyway to run older stock. I have opened out my flangeways of my Peco points so I can run both older and newer models. It is better to buy secondhand points if one wants to do this because if one messes it up, new points are not cheap! I used a broken part of a hacksaw blade to open them up.
Be aware though that flange depth can also make a difference. Too deep and the wheels will bounce down where they cross the V part of the point. Too shallow and the wheels will bounce up on their flanges. However, as I used to run deep and shallow flanges, I did deepen my point flangeaays to allow for deep whell flanges. I would get the occasional shallower flange bounce now and then but it was generally ok.

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby peterjg » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:47 am

Many thanks to everybody for their replies.
The coaches are 2x R431 and 1x R432 they are stamped made in Great Britain so I would think they are quite old. The wheels and axle are all one moulding, wheels not moveable on the axle and they have an aluminium tyre/ flange. I have had a look around and found Hornby wheels on Peter’s spares website
some 14.1mm and some12.6mm they also have their own ,made in china, (what’s not now) in brass, fits most makes at 14.1mm, some of you probably know this.
Would these be ok or better to go for Hornby ones?

Peter

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby mossdp » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:10 pm

For those models, you would need the ones that are around 12.5mm. Larger ones will raise the body and may scrape on floor or the sides. The moulded wheels with metal tyres do sometimes give problems. Incidentally, Hornby used to reuse catalogue numbers, so R431 and R432 can apply to several different models, but they all used the same size wheels!

http://www.hornbyguide.com/catalogue_nu ... atno=R.431
http://www.hornbyguide.com/catalogue_nu ... atno=R.432

It does not really matter which brand you use as long as they are pinpoint wheels (the ends of the axles are pointed), axle length is the same as the ones you take out, and diameter near enough the same.

Bigmet
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Bigmet » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:06 pm

peterjg wrote:...The coaches are 2x R431 and 1x R432 they are stamped made in Great Britain so I would think they are quite old. The wheels and axle are all one moulding, wheels not moveable on the axle and they have an aluminium tyre/ flange...

Now we know what you have got, there's a couple of things to look at before going any further:
Do these coaches roll freely, or do they very quickly stop after a push with scraping noises evident?
Looking at the underside of the coach, have (some of) the flanges made scrape marks?

I have seen a selection of old Triang /Hornby coaches with this 'one piece' wheelset moulding that had evidently had a lot of running time, and the axle locations in the bogie were very heavily worn, so much so that the wheels were very slack in the bogie. On some the flanges of some wheels were scraping the underside of the floor, on others the square axles were hitting the underside of the bogie moulding. They were pretty close to 'no roll'. The bad news was that new pinpoint wheels could not rectify the problem, as the locations in the bogies were so badly worn that the new wheelsets were very loose and some came into contact with the coach underside. There's a possibility this may be what you find, because you originally wrote:
peterjg wrote:...there is a lot of lateral movement on the wheels...


If you have some current wagons with pinpoint wheelsets from Hornby, Bachmann, or other makers, I would suggest temporarily trying their wheelsets in these bogies to see what happens. If they roll well, then look for spare wheelsets. If not, then rather than buy wheels you will do better to replace the bogies. Now, quite what is easiest to fit - and how - is a good question, and I don't know what's currently available* as spares supply has been something of a problem lately, but other contributors might.

*In a happier time Bachmann sold pairs of coach bogies in a pack, and these were typically cheaper than the price of buying the wheelsets they contained, such that 3 packs with 12 wheelsets in total, cost about the same as Bachmann's ten pack of the same wheelsets! So you got more wheels for your money, and the bogie moulding and screw on couplings thrown in for free! But these took some work to adapt to Hornby underframes.

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Mountain
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Mountain » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:17 pm

peterjg wrote:Many thanks to everybody for their replies.
The coaches are 2x R431 and 1x R432 they are stamped made in Great Britain so I would think they are quite old. The wheels and axle are all one moulding, wheels not moveable on the axle and they have an aluminium tyre/ flange. I have had a look around and found Hornby wheels on Peter’s spares website
some 14.1mm and some12.6mm they also have their own ,made in china, (what’s not now) in brass, fits most makes at 14.1mm, some of you probably know this.
Would these be ok or better to go for Hornby ones?

Peter


Use the 12.6mm wheels. Hornby sell them in packs of 10 as I know they fit. The disk ones are right for the coaches.
The other makes of wheels should also do as long as the axle lengths and the wheel diameters are similar. Most modern wheels can be adjusted with their width on their axles.

So as long as the wheel diameters are similar and the axle lengths are similar (Most are similar as there are only a few which have different widths. Peters Spares wheels should have the same axle widths). Go for the 12.6mm wheels and if you really want them to run well, brass bearings can be used which will need holes drilling to insert them, but done and adjusted right, they do make a difference, though one has to fill the holes from the outside of the axleboxes and also paint over where one has fitted the bearings... One does not have to fit them as they should run fine as they are..


If changing wheels, do not throw the old ones. People like me use them. :D

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby captrees » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:08 pm

This is a really useful thread. I needed some of that information. Thanks all.

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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby RuffnutThorston » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:05 am

Bufferstop wrote:Let's establish just how old these coaches are, the very oldest would be from the days before Triang took over the Hornby range. Each wheelset is a pair of plastic wheels each with half of a hollow axle which slides about on a central metal pin. You definitely need to replace these with new Hornby replacement wheels. You will also need to fit brass bearing cups in the axle holes. The next newer standard are complete plastic axles and wheels all in one. They were introduced by Triang and passed through to the days of Triang/Hornby. There's can be swapped directly with new Hornby replacement wheels as can the next generation which are metal rimmed versions of the same wheels. These were fitted into models produced by Hornby at Margate and by early release made in China. The final version is the one Hornby now use Which has metal wheels with a plastic bush fitted onto a metal axle.

>Snipped



Actually, the second type of Tri-ang Railways wheels and axles, from 1962 to 1963 (and later on some wagons such as the Trestrol and the Operating Hopper wagons, and many locomotive tenders), was the same type of sleeved axle half as the first type, the same design as used by Rovex, and adopted by Tri-ang Railways from the Lines Bros. take over of Rovex in 1952, but with the axle box holes that the first type have to thread the axles through being filled in, and the plain ended axles being ‘sprung’ into position in the same way as the later pin point axles.

The third type of Tri-ang Railways wheels and axles, from 1963, are plastic wheels on steel pin point axles.

These are the first type that are directly able to be swapped out for current production wheel sets. There is a small scope to vary the back to back on these wheels, but the wheels themselves can snap if care is not taken twisting them on the axles to vary the B2B.

These wheels carried through to Tri-ang Hornby, from 1965. (After Lines Bros. bought out Meccano Ltd, makers of Hornby Dublo, etc. In 1964.)

The fourth type of wheels, the integral plastic wheels on plastic pin point axles, were a Hornby Railways introduction, in the 1970s.

The earliest have square section axles. Later versions have round section axles.

The fifth type of wheels were first used on the “Silver Seal” branded coaches and wagons, and are the integral plastic wheels fitted with plated metal tyres.

These plastic wheels lasted for a long time.

After a while, the Silver Seal brand died out, but the plated wheels became standard except for train set models.

“Solo” boxed models tended to be fitted with the integral plastic wheels with the plated metal tyres.

To keep the price of train sets down, various economies were made.

In most cases, models from train sets were fitted with the integral plastic wheels without the plated metal tyres.



I think that the current type of metal wheels on metal pin point axles were introduced after production moved to China.

This period isn’t very well covered in my memory I’m afraid. :wink:

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Bufferstop
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:51 am

Yes there are definitely square axel ones that came from China. Are the plastic on metal axle ones old Hornby Dublo ex Wrenn bought back by Hornby from Dapol. What cam from where and where it visited on the way seems to get a little muddled at times. I can remember Dapol issuing a full page article to the magazines explaining what came from where, what sort of chassis was being used with what and what sort of box it would come in.
Unsurprisingly the models in the shops didn't stick to all of the rules. My local model shop made the mistake of taking some out of their boxes to look at the differences. No surprise then that several got into the wrong style boxes.
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