Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
Bigmet
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Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bigmet » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:28 pm

Having read 'Bufferstop's' comment about his Lima 94xx body becoming brittle and thus fragile, which matches my experience with a Lima J50 body purchased s/h about 15 years ago, I wonder what comes next? These steam outline models were I believe quite early products from the Lima/Riko collaboration, before they discovered that BR's diesels brought the best results and went solely that route, so would likely be at least 40 years old.

I don't have any samples of their numerous diesel outpourings to look at now. The last such I had was an early HO class 33 acquired in a mixed lot of s/h, and that had very flaky body, with the glazing particularly poor, fogged and crazing (but the motor was good and exactly what the purchaser wanted).

But of course I have no knowledge of how these s/h purchases had been treated in the past. Anyone with Lima owned from new since 1980 or earlier with their experience?

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luckymucklebackit
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby luckymucklebackit » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:43 pm

What I have noticed about my old Lima Mark 1a is that the bodies are discolouring, changing from black to a greyish colour. Nothing that some Matt black wont sort though.

Jim
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Bufferstop
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:12 pm

Amongst our membership do we have anyone from the plastics industry who can tell us what happens to ageing plastic? As they are oil derived products, is it a very slow evaporation of a chemical which gives the plastic its plasticity, would repainting aged plastic with a particular kind of primer restore some of its strength? I'd be intrigued to know.
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Dad-1
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:59 pm

An interesting thought Bufferstop.
I believe there is a very slow migration/drying. I used to use quite a lot of Squadron Green Putty
filler on aircraft models. This aggressive filler would etch into plastic, but could cause swelling,
very minute it has to be said. However a super filled and sanded join line that wasn't given many
days of drying would show definite signs of shrinkage. It would never crack the filled joint, but obvious
from reflected light on a shiny surface finish.
I have no doubt that oxidation also plays a part on unsealed plastic.

Still just about everything collapses with age & wear & tear

Geoff T
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Ken Shabby
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Ken Shabby » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:33 pm

I have quite a few items of Lima Rolling stock, and have not seen any signs of my own models becoming more fragile. But at model shows I have come across some coach and diesel bogies which have turned light grey and seem to have become less flexible. I assumed this was caused by the models being left in direct sunlight. The newest piece of stock I've seen with this problem is a Class 117 dummy driving trailer the oldest of which would be about 40 years old this year.
I've seen a quite a few Class 52 Westerns on eBay with the steps chipped off , although to be fair this is quite a delicate moulding.
I like my Lima diesels and I do try to take more care of them as they get older, especially when removing and refitting the bodies.
Typically I have quite a few of the old Lima private wagon bodies, with their horrid private owner liveries , which have been chucked in the spares box for years, and despite them getting knocked about when I'm having a rummage, they are all still undamaged.

Ken

Bigmet
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bigmet » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:30 pm

Bufferstop wrote:Amongst our membership do we have anyone from the plastics industry who can tell us what happens to ageing plastic...

I had the privilege of being able to pose such questions to various expert polymer chemists in the employ of ICI plastics. Most moulding polymers are blends of various compounds for the required performance characteristics, and some of these components can migrate, degrade, evaporate, with consequent changes to the moulded piece. My first such question was as a result of the wheels of my brother's Airfix tanks 'going runny' where they were in contact with the PVC tracks, I am sure a few here will remember this phenomenon.

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Mountain
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Mountain » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:02 am

luckymucklebackit wrote:What I have noticed about my old Lima Mark 1a is that the bodies are discolouring, changing from black to a greyish colour. Nothing that some Matt black wont sort though.

Jim


The greying effect is normally caused by exposure to sunlight. I bought a Lima bogie tanker which had sat in the shop window for a couple of years. When I took it home, the cream colour in the window panel was only cream where it had hit the light. The rest of the tanker was completely white! Lima paints did not take sunlight too well.

The H0 version of the class 33 were indeed some of the earliest Lima examples to hit these shores. I would have said that it is the ones which have sat on layouts exposed to daylight which are the most likely to have issues as some relatively early Lima which are boxed and stored most of their lives are like the day they left the shop. So I guess it depends on how often they sat on peoples layouts as many plastics do break down with age.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:08 am

Early Rovex products were extremely sensitive to daylight. Any modelshop which put a circle of Triang(Rovex) track in the window would in a very short time have an example of the banana shaped cab roof. I'm not talking of the kind of bowing which would only be noticeable against a straight edge, this would lift the two ends out of a coach body and allow the roof to fall off.
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Meister
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Meister » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:07 pm

Mountain wrote:
luckymucklebackit wrote:What I have noticed about my old Lima Mark 1a is that the bodies are discolouring, changing from black to a greyish colour. Nothing that some Matt black wont sort though.

Jim


The greying effect is normally caused by exposure to sunlight. I bought a Lima bogie tanker which had sat in the shop window for a couple of years. When I took it home, the cream colour in the window panel was only cream where it had hit the light. The rest of the tanker was completely white! Lima paints did not take sunlight too well.

The H0 version of the class 33 were indeed some of the earliest Lima examples to hit these shores. I would have said that it is the ones which have sat on layouts exposed to daylight which are the most likely to have issues as some relatively early Lima which are boxed and stored most of their lives are like the day they left the shop. So I guess it depends on how often they sat on peoples layouts as many plastics do break down with age.


Was your tanker the white 'Phillips 66' one? If so, mine is the same. White on the side facing away from the plastic window, a light greyish brown almost weathered colour on the side facing the window. I bought this and several other NOS Lima wagons from FMR in Bradford around 2005 when they were selling them off at 1/2 price. They had sat on the top shelf of the shop facing the window for probably 10-15 years and the boxes were sun-faded. It seems to depend upon the colour of the paint/plastic, with white and grey being particularly susceptible. The white tanker was by far the worst with the wagons in bright colours not showing any discernible discolouration at all.

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Mountain
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Mountain » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:08 pm

I believe it was Amaco? It looked more like a H0 tanker in style with a brake platform at one end but had 00 gauge tension lock couplings.

Meister
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Meister » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:37 pm

Probably Amoco. Sounds like the same tanker as mine in a different livery. They look more European than British in design and the bogies/wheels are noticeably undersized and probably to HO scale. I also have a black Fina one.

Bigmet
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bigmet » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:09 pm

The same vehicle that was sold in the OO range boldly branded MILK, also with a data panel for Benzin, Gasoline, etc.! That'll put some zip in your weetabix if they didn't wash it pout carefully between loads...

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Bufferstop
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:03 pm

:D :D :D :D : ROFL

Wouldn't the Benzin have melted the tank and left a sticky mess on the track :?:
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luckymucklebackit
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby luckymucklebackit » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:13 pm

Mountain wrote:
luckymucklebackit wrote:What I have noticed about my old Lima Mark 1a is that the bodies are discolouring, changing from black to a greyish colour. Nothing that some Matt black wont sort though.

Jim


The greying effect is normally caused by exposure to sunlight. I bought a Lima bogie tanker which had sat in the shop window for a couple of years. When I took it home, the cream colour in the window panel was only cream where it had hit the light. The rest of the tanker was completely white! Lima paints did not take sunlight too well.

The H0 version of the class 33 were indeed some of the earliest Lima examples to hit these shores. I would have said that it is the ones which have sat on layouts exposed to daylight which are the most likely to have issues as some relatively early Lima which are boxed and stored most of their lives are like the day they left the shop. So I guess it depends on how often they sat on peoples layouts as many plastics do break down with age.


But my coaches have been in the loft nearly all their working life, no skylight so the must be another reason.

Jim
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mossdp
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Re: Early Lima OO product mouldings becoming fragile?

Postby mossdp » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:43 pm

The Lima Amoco white bogie tankers from the H0 range sold here with UK couplings do seem to change from white to dirty white - probably from light as not all have. Look more realistic in dirty white. I find most Lima mouldings are still very stable. I think the coach bogies and similar that are more a matt grey rather than black seem just as flexible and stable. It may have just been a slightly different colour of plastic in the mould. They are quite common in this grey. A few earlier models were not so robust as the plastic was not thick or deep enough - the class 52 Western mainframe is sometimes found broken as it is rather thin around the motor bogie. They learnt their lesson an later models have deeper or thicker underframe frame mouldings.


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